Quick and easy training... is there such a thing?

[__crazy_canine__]

Ive been volunteering for a shelter at their Adoption Days for a little over a year now. Well, Ive learned a lot from this and Dogo about dog behaviour and Id like to say I know how the mind of a dog works pretty well honestly. I apply this to the dogs at Straydog but Im concerned about whether or not Im doing it right even though its gotten me good results.

I often think about wolves and their behavior when I work with puppies, is this worng to do? This one pup is about 5 months old and is slightly dog aggressive, she thinks shes just as big as all the other dogs and really gets mean! So, heres what I did. She was barking excessively and even snapping at another dog. I grabbed her put her on her back in a submissive postition in front of me and the dog she was barking at who was older (she needs to have respect for her elders :lol: ) Am I wrong in doing this at all? If so, what should I do instead?

Then theres Josie, a pit bull I love to death!!! Well, she is dog aggressive in a way. At first she seems to do okay with other dogs but once shes around them for too long, she gets aggressive towards them. Ive been trying really hard to work with her but shes too stubborn for a lot of my usual techniques. Ive tried using a squirt bottle, distracting her by several means but nothings worked too good. The only thing that has worked and gotten her under control pretty well is applying pressure to her throat when she barks. I yell to her "no bark!" and when she calms down I tell her "good no bark!" and somewtimes give her a treat or at least pet her A LOT! She responds well to this but shes so stubborn at times that doing that doesnt work. I dont want to cause damage to her trachea or anything by choking her too much or hurting her neck but shes unwilling to give up. What else can you expect from a pittie though, eh? :lol:

So about Josie, should I try something else or should I keep doing this? It HAS been working but Im seriously worried about hurting her. Should I not be as worried, I mean dogs are pretty strong and what I might think is hurtful really might not be... wrong or not?

My overall point is though that I need quick and simple techniques because as soon as they go back to the shelter theyll be spoiled and no training will go into effect. Most of the dogs have learned that Im pretty strict though and get their act back together when Im with them or otherwise theyll not be rewared or even wghen worst comes to worst punished in a sense.

I know positive training is the right way to go but its a long process and thats just something I cant do with these dogs when I dont have them 24/7. So advice please?!? Thanks in advance!!!!!

EDIT: I do know that my methods werent the best thing to do, just so you know. So please dont flame me :lol:

[imported_Matty]

The one thing I learned with dealing with dog aggression is to use positive training. A dominant dog or pup suddenly thrown onto its back in front of another pup or dog may become defensive in the future. I also found with some dogs that by punishing them for barking, lunging and other bad behaviors doesnt teach the dog not to do it, it only surpresses the options for doing it. So, next time instead of giving a growl, saying the dog had been punished for growling it may instead go from a normal stance into a full blown attack next time.
I may be completely wrong on this :D I only speak from experience from my own dogs. Instead of punishing my dogs for being aggressive or dominant I usually let them work it out on their own. For a pup, I have left a pup with an older experienced dog which has taught the pup how to be socially proper. Pups and dogs need to learn social etiquette (I know my spelling sucks). A dog which doesnt learn how to act properly around other dogs can become defensive or offensive.
So for me, I have always praised my pups when they do some thing right and redirected the wrong behavior into a right behavior. For instance a dog walking by another lunges and tries to attack. I start to carry treats and teach my dog that the treats are in my treat purse (carried around my waist) when I see the other dog coming I start putting my hand on my treat purse, this gets my dog exicted and it calms him down. While passing the other dog I give treats on the way by and praise for such wonderful behavior. Instead of stressing the dog out and attacking the dog or yanking on a choke I am teaching the dog to be calm and not to get stressed out. Dogs learn behaviors and proper social behavior by positive training, negetive training can put a pup or dog on guard and make it tense. negetive training may seem like its working but, in the long run it is only ruining the dog. If I were upset or nervous or saw a situation which I was getting tensed up about and my friend started wacking me or pulling my hair I would still have the issues of the moment plus dealing with my friend being mean to me. In the end I would not have learned any thing but to be more upset or nervous.

I know I don't make alot of sense. Hopefully Kat will clear things up for you and explain to you about proper training. :D

[rotten_two]

why not try to educate those who 'work' with the dogs at the shelter? in order for any training method to be successful you have to be consistent. seems to me if you are the only one trying to train or modify behavior then already you have a strike against you. i am a huge +R advocate and those are the methods i use when i train. as to whether or not there is a quick fix -- i think behavior modification takes time period. if you are clear and consistent and the dog is responsive to you then you may be able to accomplish some goals more quickly.

first puppies are not wolves. i am completely against alpha rolls. generally alpha dogs don't have to assert this kind of force -- when you see status related issues it is usually between lower class citizens -- alphas usually need do very little to "prove" themselves. that is not to say they won't ever remind pack members who is in charge. those status seeking members are the ones making all the fuss because they are not secure with their place in the pack.

so my suggestion is to not alpha roll! think about it -- pup is "slightly" dog aggressive -- so she is not comfortable near other dogs -- or at least not as close as she was in this instance. i think i would try to find a safe distance (and it may be quite large at first) where she is not so reactive ask her to sit and give her lavish praise and snacks when she is not obsessing with other dogs. (btw do we know why she is so reactive? is it fear based?) commands like watch me can work wonders here. no this is not a quick fix but by rolling her you are essentially punishing her for being in an uncomfortable situation. better to move her out of the situation and praise when she does the correct thing which is anything besides snap, snarl and lunge! then you can gradually try to decrease the distance between her and other dogs.

josie is kind of the same story. for a while she is comfortable then she flips. my first question would be what happened right before she flipped? short increments seem to be in order here. let her socialize for 3 minutes and remove her -- do some training away from other dogs. then try 4 or 5 minutes. the key is to figure out how long she can be nice and then work on building up her exposure time from there. watch me would be valuable here too. i say nix the squirt bottle -- again you are punishing her for feeling uncomfortable. you said you have tried distracting her with several things -- toys? food? i mean the good stuff like hot dogs and chicken? you can always put yourself between her and whatever she is looking at -- might buy you a second or two to get her attention focused elsewhere. to me if you are worrying that you are hurting a dog you are probably not using the correct method!

so all in all i don't think i told you what you want to hear and i am sure there will be a long and sordid list of those who have different views than mine. there are many ways to deal with the same problems. personally i would start with the people at the shelter and talk with them and get a game plan together so that everyone is on the same page with how dogs will be managed. in the long run it will help the dogs become more adoptable if certain basic manners have been reinforced. it is not a hard process (+R) but it does require some organization and that you all be consistent and patient.

good luck!

[__crazy_canine__]

That makes sense Matty and thanks!

It doesnt exaclty help me though beause for one, Ive tried the whole treat thing with Josie and that just makes her more defensive over her food.

And with the puppy, its almost too old and rough now to even have another dog that will tolerate it and teach it the right ways. Its a pit mix and sweet as can be with humans but does have an attitude with other dogs. I dont think it has anything with her being a pit though, I think its just from being at the shelter shes at shes learned to stick up for herself when bullied. She had part of her ear torn off the last time playing, thats how rough she and her other puppy-friends get! :o

Josie is a quick learner, she really is but her stubborness is hard to deal with in training. So if I do try and work with positive training, how can I work on it without having to spend LOTS of time on it. Thats the whole problem, I need quick results for Adoption Days. What should I do when I can feel her getting tense around another dog or starts to bark or whine? I cant just ignore it because that will start the other dogs up and cause havoc. Its really hard to do positive tarining in that kind of environment because Im worried her barking and aggressiveness will give the pit even more of a bad image.

[__crazy_canine__]

Rotten_two, trying to teach the people at the shelter that not enforcing certain things isnt helping the dogs any is harder than it sounds. Im sure no matter what theyll still do what theyll always do. Tina, for one, babys all the dogs and they absolutely love her so shes happy with that. She actually ALLOWS Josie to nip and bite her (of course its love-bites and just playing). BUT STILL! Its just not exceptable and certainly not helping her chances for adoption at all!!!!

I know that training has to be consistant thats why I tried doing the things I did before for a quick fix, I know it was irresponsible of me know that I think more about it but I feel like this is a never-ending battle since I only have around 4 hours to work with them only one day a week PLUS I cant always be working with them in those four hours since they have to be there for people to look at them.

The puppy, Brook, reacts to other dogs first so she usually is starting it unless they send her some vibes that I dont notice which is very possible. I dont think its fear-based but again its possible. Shes a tough pup and tries to dominate every dog, and they dont usually like that idea. your suggestion to move her out of the situation isnt always easy. The pups are usually behind fences, which now that I think about it, might be whats making her uncomfortable. So now that thats apparent what should I do about it?

Josie... lets see. Well, I can usually tell right away when a dog comes by she doesnt like it. She goes stiff and if the dog keeps walking by she starts growling a little and if I try to bring her back I only trigger her to flip out so I stopped doing that. Instead I called her name and get her attention with something. What kind of treats do I use? Hmmm, depends. Last weekend I bought some liver training treats. See the thing about the really good treats is I think it triggers her aggressive-side even more causing her to gaurd her food and so she just starts growling at all the dogs instead of a few. And with the quirt bottle, the only reason I do that is because all of the Straydog volunteers were taught by the PetsMart trainers to use them, great trainers, eh? Puuting myself between her and the other dog might help but Ive done that before with other dogs and with a dog this strong Ill have trouble holding her far enough back so that she doesnt scratch me adn take her anger out on me.

And no dont think it wasnt what I wanted to hear, Im completely open to suggestions its just... ugh, I dont think you all realise just how hard it is to use these methods in the environment were in and how a long process wont work considering my little time available for them. Thanks and ILl try it anyway, I just hope it will work some.

[imported_Kat]

First off all its great that you are willing to learn about behaviour and to apply it to these dogs and help them get a home. Throught doing my degree and through wanting to apply behavioural observations, I have done a fair bit of work with both dogs and wolves. They are extremely different in their mannerisms and when confronted with various situations. Even the hybrids give a different response in comparison to what a domestic dog would give from most breeds in a given situation.

Its very hard to "train" a wolf even by repetitive positive motivative training. Trying to ascertain the alpha position with a dog is more achievable but dogs are so far removed from their ancestors in some respects that when giving training seminars I tend not to talk so much of alpha roles. I think its more acceptable to talk of places. I don't dominate my dogs and i don't think that any dog should really be dominated. They are treated with respect and as a result they treat me with respect.

There is a very fine line that people can cross when trying to control their dog and personally i see going over towards the domination side is a recipe for disaster. People aren't consistent enough and different signals presents conflict in the dogs mind and is usually manifested in a display of fear/neurotic aggression.

Sometimes I think its better for dogs to be trained with a level understanding between dog and handler and usually that canbe done through motivational training.

Thats just a few thoughts from me. if there is anything specific you want more insight on then I'll gladly give you some thoughts. :wink:

[imported_Matty]

Bravo Rotten_two, bravo. (clapping hands in response)

Also Bravo Kat :D

Positive training has long term results where as forced based training may seem like its working but in the end it creates a distrustful dog. The hardest dogs to train are dogs which have been through forced based training.

[rotten_two]

bravo all of us -- especially cc for being open to suggestions and wanting to better the shelter! i think we are all saying the same thing which is the best hope for behavioral change is thru postive methods.

cc -- i know all too well how difficult it can be to "train" people. 90% of dog training is teaching the handler. everything you ever want to teach a dog -- he already knows how to do -- the trick is teaching the handler to mark and reward behavior appropriately! i really do sympathize with your struggles. i think the best thing for you to do given your situation (you don't have infinite time with these dogs) is to use postive methods when you are there. as much as we want to we can't do it all ourselves. so you do what you can and know you are making a difference.

i don't mean to sound like i am attacking shelters or fosters -- god bless all involved, but sometimes you get individuals involved that have hearts in the right place but they do let pups get away with lots. let me give you a for instance -- aspen is a rescue pup and his foster mom -- god love her for taking him in -- made training him so much harder. in the 3 weeks he was with her he was allowed to chew shoes, access to outside whenever (unsupervised), to pee in the crate because she needed her 8 hours/nite, etc. made it a little harder to untrain all that stuff. lucky for us he is such a smart boy :)

i will pm you a bit later with some suggestions for josie :)