Rat poison and dogs

[Horsefeathers!]

I just got off the phone with what WAS a really good client. She had a Cocker Spaniel. I've been calling people a few times a week to cancel prestanding appointments since I'm still not working.

Imagine my shock when this lady told me that Sky had died. Now imagine my utter horror when she said he got into rat poison. Here's the thing and I'm so shook up, I don't know what to do-

She says she has NEVER used rat poison around her place and there was no way he could have gotten into it at her house and that he is not a yard dog and there is nowhere nearby he could have gotten into it. She said he is NEVER outside without someone and that, in 12 years, he has never eaten something in the yard, anyway.

This dog apparently got sick exactly three WEEKS after I groomed him. She started off asking me if Doc (in our vet clinic) has rat poison laying around. I told her of course not and she said it was the only place he could have gotten into it. I told her that when I groom them, they are with me all day and the grooming area is completely different than the general area, anyway, and I KNOW I don't use rat poison. Beside that, he'd have had to be loose and he's NEVER been loose.

She wasn't ugly with me at all, but was understandably upset. Now I'm upset. Her regular vet is a different one than the one where I work. The OTHER vet is one I've had little respect for for several years because, frankly, I think he's not only a jerk, but an incompetent. Still, I've never, ever said a bad word to anyone about this vet. I don't badmouth him at all.

This client said that the vet told her it HAD to be rat poison. Once she said she never used it, he insisted it HAD to come from "somewhere," leaving that implication wide open. From what I gather, he didn't go so far as to accuse me or my vet personally (nice save, a**hole), but insisted it HAD to be rat poison even after she said he hadn't been anywhere but our clinic. He saved his butt just enough by letting her draw the conclusion that we'd exposed him to rat poison without actually saying it. From what I could gather from her, no lab tests were run to look for anything else. It was just his opinion that, based on the bleeding, it HAD to be rat poison. He also said that it could take three weeks after ingestion to make a dog sick (remember... it had been three weeks after I groomed him that he got sick).

Can someone help me here? Can rat poison REALLY take three weeks after ingestion to make a dog start showing symptoms? I know beyond any shred of a doubt that the dog did not get into anything while I had him, but I'm so upset that she thinks he did. She doesn't seem upset with me personally since she referred another client to take her dog's place in my schedule.

My opinion is that this vet is WAY off base by insisting that it HAD to be rat poison. Isn't there anything else in the world that could make a dog bleed out? I think he should have run lab tests. She said he shot him up with B12 and as far as I could gather, that was it. I was very sympathetic to her on the phone and I feel really horrible, but the professional I am, it took all I had not to tell her that this vet is an incompetent a**hole (not only in THIS case), anyway.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sorry but in all my years I have never heard of Rat Poison taking 3 freaking weks to take "effect".

As far as I have ever been told it happens right way.

I'm so very sorry for what you are dealing with. I know it can not be easy. Especially when someone thinks it is because of you.

[MajiesMom]

You would have to talk to a "Pest Professional" if that's what they're called and find out how much poision the dog would have to ingest and how long it would take to kill the dog. Your shop doesn't use rat poision? I have a friend who uses pest control and the guy gave them the whole lesson on protecting her dogs and cats and exactly how much they would have to ingest and even gave the name of the antidote to get from the vet.
There are so many plants, household cleaners and other household items like the one everyone knows; antifreeze, that is poisionous to dogs. Even the swiffer wet jet is poisionous to dogs! Maybe she overdosed him on grapes the night before? ....or he chewed on the geraniums?
I seriously doubt you had anything to do with it, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Lokipups]

HF, it may have been arsenic, and yes, it can take up to several weeks to see any effects from it :( , I'm so sorry for your poor client. Most rat poisons are anticoagulants, hence the bleeding out. Here the link for the Merck Manual if you want some more info.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/212900.htm
But here's the scary part, someone else I know had the same problem with her Sibe, turns out the feed store where she gets her stuff from had contaminated food storage :o . Is that a possibility?

[courtnek]

well, I read a lot of stuff about rat poison. it appears that if ingested in small amounts, over a long period of time, it could cause issues. so it possibly could have taken a few weeks to kill/affect the dog. however, that would mean that there was rat poison somewhere laying about that the dog had access to. in a large quantity, the affect would be much sooner.

most rat poisons are targeted to rats, small creatures who's metabolism is remarkably high. small doses would kill them, but might only make a larger animal sick, unless ingested over time. the older versions od rat poison had strychnine in them, the new versions no longer do, since its illegal. strychnine is nasty, and could kill a dog quickly in a big enough amount.

[Horsefeathers!]

See, this is the stuff I was puzzled about. If SHE doesn't use rat poison and *I* don't use it, where could he have gotten it?

I'm just not convinced it's rat poison. The dog was 12 years old and otherwise healthy it seems.
:(

[imported_Matty]

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1936&articleid=2231

The dog was 12 years old :o perhaps the old doll died of another age related disease. Heck, I work with a girl who was just diagnosed with skin cancer and was all set for the surgery. Thank goodness there was a specialist present, turns out it was a bug bite. I think doctors who do not do tests to determine exactly what the problem is are full of baloney. Obviously this vet is trying to pin some blame in the direction of one of his competeting vets.

I would say that without testing you cannot know for sure it was rat poison. I would say the good doc took a guess ta ment of what the problem was without confirming with tests. What a jerk. Don't get yourself in a panic, just pass it off to your customer as there are many disorders which can cause the same symptoms, and why wasn't there testing done???

[courtnek]

I would have to say not rat poison, if everyone is sure there was none available. Also, rat poison ingested slowly, over time, would have caused other sickness. vomiting and lethargy especially. ingesting any poison over time causes "other" issues, illness. before the poison kills. there are always signs, most people think of them as flu or "malasia" (what kinda crap is THAT? doctors used to call them the "vapors" because they couldnt figure them out) but it is not without previous symptoms prior to death.

would it be hard to talk to the vet? I hate to say this, but people lie. she may not have told you the complete truth. sorry, HF, I know she was a trusted client, but I am not the trusting sort....

[Horsefeathers!]

courtnek napisał(a):

would it be hard to talk to the vet? I hate to say this, but people lie. she may not have told you the complete truth. sorry, HF, I know she was a trusted client, but I am not the trusting sort....

Court, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to talk with that vet. He's a pompous jerk who will not be bothered conversing with a lowly groomer. I don't doubt for a minute that she's telling the truth about what he said. At best, she might be misinterpreting something, but this particular vet has a history of being nasty and accusatory. If it were out of character for him, I'd be more likely to discredit her.

To be honest, this vet has given me his arse to kiss ever since a few years ago when his uncle scraped my car with his van. This vet just totally thought I was stupid for filing a claim to have my car repaired since I wasn't driving an expensive new car. His personal demeanor aside, I've seen sooooooooo many mistakes he has made. I realize vets are human and they all make them, but this guy has made some real doozies. Over the years, I've often wondered if he got his veterinary degree through some correspondence school. :-?

No, it's not likely I'll get anything out of him by trying to talk to him. He won't even speak to me when I speak. He only associates with a certain class of society and it ain't dog butt scrubbers.

[courtnek]

then I would take down a "statement" from her...including what the vet said. Like I said, I'm NOT the trusting sort. I wouldnt want to see you "hung out to dry" because of what this bastard said "might have" happened...get her statement, and get her to SIGN it.

[Canis erectus]

Horsefeathers, sometimes it's best not to fret overly much about such things. If she's been a good client in the past, and wasn't overtly upset with you or your clinic, you'll probably have her buisness back if/when she decides to get another dog. Folks seem awfully particular about their dog's groomers and it seems that once they find one's that suites their needs they will continue to keep returning.

There's a whole mess of different things that could have killed her dog, and without proper labwork no one will ever know now. It seems to me that if you continue to pursue the matter with your client it may sound to her as if you're being overly defensive. You might want to just send her a simple sympathy card in the mail signed by you and the grooming staff (if you have any other staff). Sometimes a simple little thing like that can be the most appreciated thing.

Also, I think that leveling any accusations at the other veterinarian will only make the poor woman decide that she needs to choose between you or him. I figure it's just an all-around rule of thumb not to slander or discredit other local buinesess, whenever that kind of situation escalates it never causes anything but more problems, even if the other guy really is a bigoted @$$.

It's nice to know that you take this much interest in your client and I hope it all ends up OK.

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh, no no no! I'd NEVER badmouth the vet to her, as much as I'd like to give him a swift kick to the crotch. It took all I had not to say anything, but I didn't and wouldn't only because I feel that makes me look unprofessional. I don't intend to approach her again about it. I just feel really, really bad that it happened at all. I'd never wish to rub salt in her wounds.

I posted here pretty much immediately when I got off the phone with her because I was reeling. I've had time to calm down and realize she isn't pursuing me for anything. I'm just so saddened by the whole thing and angered by that vet's all or nothing attitude. I've been reading and reading since I got off the phone with her. That dog was 12 years old and there are any number of things that can cause bleeding like that from autoimmune disorders to a tumor on the spine that ruptured (as in one case I read about) to any number of other things. The vet should have at least offered a necropsy (but considering he didn't offer lab work to find out what was wrong...). I KNOW this woman would have gone for it if she had known she might have a chance to find out what indeed went wrong and caused her dog to bleed out and die.

Thanks, guys.

[imported_Cassie]

This is quite a coincidence. I was just reading a post by TDG in the health section regarding Rimadyl killing dogs and causing internal bleeding. Perhaps it was the dogs own Veterinarian who killed your clients dog with a different poison....Rimadyl. Of course being a good business owner you do not point fingers, but, it would be interesting to share this article with your client....just for educational purposes of course:wink:

Here is part of the post submitted by TDG.

[quote]LAWSUIT OVER VETERINARY DRUG SETTLED

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Johns Island, South Carolina - August 18, 2004

Jean Townsend of Johns Island, South Carolina announced today that a settlement has been reached with Pfizer, Inc. in what appears to be the first lawsuit of its kind in this country a lawsuit over injuries that led to the death of Ms. Townsend's chocolate lab, George. Ms. Townsend originally brought a class action lawsuit against Pfizer in October of 1999, two years after the tragic death of George. The lawsuit alleged that after initial approval by the FDA, the drug Rimadyl

[imported_Kat]

There is no way that warfarin poisoning would take 3 weeks to show up! It would be within that day of the dog swallowng it! Thats why its so important to react fast and get infusions of vitamin K into the animal and to feed it salt in order to make the animal vomit up the poison.

[bk_blue]

Hmm that is odd. I always thought rat poison worked pretty much immediately. Arsenic does take ages to kill someone, but where do you get that stuff these days? I imagine it would be pretty hard to get a hold of some...?

Did the dog get into anyone's medication, perhaps? Warfarin is used to thin the blood in a lot of patients with AF, clots etc. Just a thought... and yeah, it could have been a number of things, with the dog being so old.

Another thought: you probably don't want to do this but have you thought about reporting the vet to the AVA or similar body? If he really is as incompetent as you think he is, can anything be done?

Anyway I am so sorry for your client. How awful to lose a pet like that. :cry: I hope you don't feel too horrible because it was sooo not anything to do with you. :angel:

[mouseatthebusstop]

I am sorry for Sky and for you that they are trying to blame you