I need advice...

[Phez718]

I have an APBT who is using a martingale collar now, but if he sees something he wants to get to(a cat, dog, food) he pulls and doesn't care if he chokes. He is fine and walks with a loose leash other times. Someone suggested the Gentle Leader, but I'm not sure. The main reason is because of the image it puts off, most people think it is a muzzle.

So, should I go ahead and get it regardless of the image? Or, should I just keep working with him with his martingale collar? I am hoping to get him up to a flat collar soon, so which would he switch over more easily with?

[Taurus and Jada]

well I am not familiar with the collar you spoke of, I can say that I wouldn't be able to function if I wasn't introduced to a prong collar. I too have a male APBT, he is 4 1/2 years old, and 70 lbs. Although 70 lbs is not a huge dog, he sure can pull me around. When he sees something he wants ( such as a squirrel, cat, etc...) he GOES for it....

It was very hard for me to walk him with a normal flat collar, and I refused to use a gentle leader for the same reason you stated; people think its a muzzle.

http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

here is a great link which shows you how to properly fit the collar on your dog. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT...

Good luck, I hope this has helped..

Kara

[kendalyn]

I wouldn't go with a gentle leader. They do not help you train your dog, they only make it much harder for the dog to behave badly. The transition from gentle leader to flat collar will be very hard because your dog hasn't learned not to pull.

Can you try distracting him when he sees something he wants? Then reward him for sticking by you. Keep doing this until you are past whatever he wants. It may help depending on your dog. I know some dogs can't really be distracted like that.

A prong may work well for you, but remember you still need to be able to transition from the prong to a flat collar. The prong should only be used for training and the end goal is to be able to walk your dog on the flat collar without him pulling.

[imported_Kat]

The halti or gentle leader is a good tool but have you tried to address the problem of his wandering attention rather than try to fix it by using a variety of collars?

Do a little basic obedience training with him, of which more details can be found in the training section of this forum and try to get his attention focessed more on you so that you are more exciting than the distraction.

Below is an extract from a previous post where I advised another owner about distraction:
Basic obedience, keep him on lead on your left hand side, with a treat at below left hip level and tell him watch.(show him the food before hand and make sure he knows its there). As soon as he rears his head to watch you, treat him. Break him off and do it again, this time getting that focus for a few seconds, and build it up. Then and only then when you have the watch, ask someone to walk past, and keep that watch. Again go through the motions, and continue on until that person can walk a dog past you and your dog, and your dog will keep his attention on you. Always have him on the lead. You don't achieve anything by having him off-lead. When you are confident with this, take him to a busier area, and if you are at a park/dog class, ask a few owners with dogs to hang near you, but not to play with their dogs. Again when you have his attention, progress and ask the owners to play lightly with their dogs. Keep that focus. You have to show your dog that you are much more exciting than the distraction that is going on around you.

And another on pulling on the lead:

When I am teaching my classes lead pulling is the most common problem that owners have to deal with. We start off by getting the dogs attention using food, with the dog always on the left leg of the handler. The handler steps off on the left foot and walks fast. If the dog isn't interested at all in food and is pulling way ahead then a fast direction change is done calling the dogs name.

This is continued up and down the training hall until the dog starts thinking whoa I'm getting no where pulling like this, and the dog will then start paying attention to the handler to judge when the handler is going to make the turn. It then turns into a catch up game with the dog keeping pace with the handler to attempt to judge when the turn is going to come. This exercise keeps their brains active (both dog and handler!), and is a great way I have found to prevent dogs from pulling. The important thing to remember is not to support the dog and a tight lead, as this encourages the dog to pull.

[Guest Anonymous]

I like Gentle Leaders a lot. I agree with another poster that they are not optimum for training, (i.e. teaching heeling) but the mere fact that they make a dog not pull teaches the dog to start controlling himself around distractions. And that is huge when it comes to dog training.

It is true that they are often mistaken for a muzzle (this is part of the reason why they are now being marketed with a button you can wear that says "no, it is not a muzzle"), but so what? You can talk to people about that and educate them and perhaps turn some other dog owners onto this great tool.

I am not so fond of prongs, partly because they look so horrible, but there is no doubt that they also work. Distraction works if you can find something more interesting for the dog than whatever he wants to go to. Some dogs can be worked up to the point where the food they hope for is more interesting than the cat running past, some can't. I don't like to count on that alone because a lot of dogs will eventually say "I'll be back for that treat right after I chase this cat."

As several people have implied, the collar doesn't train the dog. The trainer trains the dog and whatever collar you use, your dog will learn if you get him out and work with him.

primrose

[pLaurent]

When I am teaching my classes lead pulling is the most common problem that owners have to deal with. We start off by getting the dogs attention using food, with the dog always on the left leg of the handler. The handler steps off on the left foot and walks fast. If the dog isn't interested at all in food and is pulling way ahead then a fast direction change is done calling the dogs name.

This is continued up and down the training hall until the dog starts thinking whoa I'm getting no where pulling like this, and the dog will then start paying attention to the handler to judge when the handler is going to make the turn. It then turns into a catch up game with the dog keeping pace with the handler to attempt to judge when the turn is going to come. This exercise keeps their brains active (both dog and handler!), and is a great way I have found to prevent dogs from pulling. The important thing to remember is not to support the dog and a tight lead, as this encourages the dog to pull.

This is the method I used to stop my pit bull from pulling. She had no training when I got her, and the pulling was unbelievable!

The exercise you have outlined really works.:)

[Guest Anonymous]

I only use a Martinegale on my Chow/Shep mix because flat buckle collars she can slip right out of if spooked.

Gretchen my ACD and Prissy my APBT both have a harness. Gretchen totally spazed with the halti. I had just put it on her to fit her and allow her to get used to it. There was no leash attached and we were afraid she was going to injure herself. We tried several more times over the course of a month and each time each reaction was worse than the one before.

The Beagle, the Aussie mix, the ??? Mix and the Pom all use straight flat buckle collars. The Aussie was trained to heel using a choke but the others were not.

Beaux the ASD- I use a flat buckle on him most of the time but when I have him in Public I also keep a Prong on him. I use two leashes with him. A 6 foot lead on the Prong (it is held in my hand but isn't pulling on his collar) and a short Handle (That's all there is to it...a handle) on the flat buckle. I only use the the prong if he's not responding to me or is dragging me across the room/store/parking lot. He weighs close to what I do so I need that extra something in case I can't get his attention. We are working on a lot of things with him right and the biggest is the paying attention to me.

In the picture below he is wearing a choke collar...it came with him and since he broke his flat buckle I needed something to grab a hold of so we slipped that back on until we could get him another collar.

[drjeffrock]

I am not a fan of gentle leaders. Most people I know who have tried training with a gentle leader have dogs that behave well with them on, but pull like crazy if they are using a regular collar.
I alternate between a Premier (martingale-type collar) and a pinch collar w/ Dex.
You want to make your dog focus on YOU, not on the cat, dog, squirrel. Obviously this is much easier said than done. It takes a long time and is very frustrating but keep at it. Another thing that might help is to let your dog carry his favorite toy in his mouth. Sometimes this gives the dog something to focus on, and can help your dog not pay attention to other distractions. By using treats, praise, etc. you should see some results. If your dog ignores the treats and starts lunging at other dogs, hide the treat. Dex has gotten better. He used to act the fool anytime he saw another dog even if it was a block away. I have desensitized him to a distance of around 15-20 feet. Now, if he starts acting up, I can give him a correction (with the martingale) and a grunt, and he gets the point that I am not thrilled with his behavior. Good luck, and keep at it.
Dont be put off by ignorant people who view pinch collars as cruel torture devices. Let them think what they want, you are the one doing what it takes to have a well-behaved dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

I train my pup on a prong collar. He's not a pittie, but boy is he strong when he pulls. And he was the WORST puller ever! So after a lot of thinking about it, and talking to people, I finally got myself a prong collar. I've been working with Coal on it for some time now and have seen a lot of improvement. I can now walk him in my yard, and through the woods (lots of good smells and small animals to chase) and I do this all offlead and he listens well! Of course it helps to have a good "LEAVE IT" command, which Coal has, and had taken months to get :wink: I'm not a big fan of the GL anymore because my last dog I used on it was highly aggressive, and I hated having her on it because she would lung forward at another dog and get her head whiped back :-? I'm wishing now that I had used a prong on her, I think it would have saved my arm and her neck a LOT! :o

Whatever you chose, make sure you don't use that tool as a replacement for training! Keep practicing, and go at your dog's pace! Don't add too many large distractions until your dog is ready! But you can use whatever tool you chose for walks, to save your arm :wink: , and hopefully with training you will soon see a lot of improvement! :D

[Phez718]

I would LOVE if I could use a prong, but I can't. I'm living with my mom and she thinks they are cruel. She told me as long as I'm in her house, Casey is not going to wear "something that will hurt him" :roll: I haven't tried distracting him, but I will take a pocketful of treats tonight on our walk and see if it works.

[Taurus and Jada]

I would LOVE if I could use a pring, but I can't. I'm living with my mom and she thinks they are cruel. She told me as long as I'm in her house, Casey is not going to wear "something that will hurt him" I haven't tried distracting him, but I will take a pocketful of treats tonight on our walk and see if it works.

perhaps you could enlighten her that they are not "evil" and are actually much better for a dog then a choke collar. There have been studies which have shown this to be true..

[Taurus and Jada]

From The American Bulldog Resources page:
Prong Collars
A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:

a.. 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong collars.

b.. The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.

c.. Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back.

2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.

d.. Of the 50 which had prong collars, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

The numbers seem to speak for themselves.

(Information about this study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a GL for both of my dogs and i swear by them. My dogs are so well behaved on the GL it is not even funny.. At first when they were getting used tot hem they tired to a few times to dart away ( Zoey ) but after 2 times she stopped, that was the first thing we put on them when they were pups is a GL to get them used to it, and when they dont ahve the GL they are impossible to walk. Cody will still try to get his off every once in a awhile. but walks great ( he needs it anyways, as he's deaf it is very easy for me to get his attention with a GL ) and Zoey with out it she pulls even my husband downt he road but with the GL on she walks right by his side..

[katetsai]

I use gentle leader on my dobie Snoopy. You're right that many people will think it's a muzzle, but then I'll explain to them it's not a muzzel, but a harness that prevent the dog from pulling. Next time, the same people would know, and not mistaken it for a muzzel. I don't mind telling people what gentle leader is, and it's work great for me & my dog.

Good luck!

[Guest Anonymous]

Pheasant718 napisał(a):

I would LOVE if I could use a prong, but I can't. I'm living with my mom and she thinks they are cruel. She told me as long as I'm in her house, Casey is not going to wear "something that will hurt him" :roll: I haven't tried distracting him, but I will take a pocketful of treats tonight on our walk and see if it works.

I wonder if someone here could show her the study done by the military that showed that there was less damage done to the dogs who were trained with the Prong/pinch collars than the ones who had the choke.

[drjeffrock]

I am kind of skeptical about that study too. Were the people using the choke chains using it properly, or just letting them jam into the dogs neck/trachea,etc? I think that prongs are a bit safer, but I have used a choke chain in the past (properly) and had good results. Still though, I think a prong is more effective.
If your moms wont let you use one, just work with the martingale. I used the martingale for 80% of Dex's training and have seen results with it.

[TDG]

i just have to post a note here.

i too do not think that prong collars are "evil", but whoever recommended the fitting technique shown on the leerburg site - that is not the proper fit and can do a lot of serious damage to your dog.

no instructor in germany (where this type of collar was invented) would let you get away with fitting a prong collar on a dog that way. it's positioned at the most vulnerable spot of the neck, directly over the larynx, which has very delicate bones.

the site is correct that it is also not supposed to rest too far down towards the shoulders, but the true proper fit is snugly about in the middle between the yellow line and where it actually rests in that one pic, where skin and muscle protects the neck. the correction will still be effective, but is not going to cause intense pain and possibly serious injury.

[courtnek]

ok Free is a Lab Mix.

I have tried:

Gentle Leaders - she pulled out of them every time, when excited by a running animal.

Halti's - same thing.

Prong collars - she still manged to somehow choke herself, but it may have been fitted wrong, I dont know.

I settled on a web no-pull harness. she sees what she wants, she tries to run, and the harness stops her in her tracks. If she continues to pull, it will buckle her front legs. that's how it's designed. She pulled so hard at first she fell twice. Got up, realized pulling was not going to get her anywhere, and stopped. Now realize, no amount of treating, distractions, or praise will stop this dog if she sees something run. She's a hunting dog. the chase is in her blood. and yes, it's a crutch, but a working crutch. As soon as she is in harness, she stops pulling. she will still try to choke herself on a flat collar. but she is not in training for anything, and walking on the harness is a pleasure. depends on what you want in the long run.

Most dogs do not ever pull hard enough on these harnesses to force the buckling. Free is very stubborn. Laurel pulled once, realized she was going nowhere and stopped.

[Smooshie]

You name it, I've tried it....

I really don't like choke collars because my Boxers have decided that lack of oxygen is well worth it if there's a cat or a squirrel involved :roll: Yes yes...I know...bad leash manners...believe me its a work in progress..

GL worked well with Loki for his initial training....at least it kept him from pulling my arm out of its socket until he learned we were NOT running the Iditerod (sp?). Now he has graduated to a nylon martingale, which he walks very nicely on (unless he sees a squirrel or cat). He could probably do just fine on a flat collar, however I worry that he will slip it and run if he sees something too tempting to pass up the chase.His prey drive is exceptional.

Lyra didn't take so well to the gentle leader...in fact she got quite neurotic over it, so rather than freak her out more, I opted to buy her a no pull harness....it works wonders.

I do not use prong collars on my dogs, NOT because I think they are cruel or wrong in any way, its just like the GL I get tired of all the gasps of horror from people when they see the "big mean dog-that-needs-a-muzzle-or-pinch-collar" coming :roll: