Should I switch Coal's diet???

[Guest Anonymous]

I've been concidering switching Coal over to BARF for some time now, even since the day I got him!! I just finished the Anal Gland thread :lol: :lol: And started concidering it more. Not just for that sake, but because I think a natural diet is truly the way to go. It probably wouldn't be as stricked as Hazel's though, since her's was to fix Hot Spots and her mental problem, cured the hot spots completely and did help some with her head :wink:

However, I haven't fed BARF in over a year now, and am really not sure where to start :o I'm sure most if it will come back with flying colours, but any help on the way would be appretiated!

How much should I feed on a daily basis?

Coal right now is getting two meals a day, about half to a cup of food in the morning and at night. I don't messure it, and have never stuck by anything strickt. He's of very good weight, and in good shape, and I've only ever added or taken away kibble when I thought was necisary, but what I feed him now seems to be good.
He is not the type of dog to sit down and eat a meal all at once usually though. Sometimes he does, especially if he was just outside running around, or first thing in the morning, but lots of the time he just picks at it through the day. With BARF it would be best if he ate it all at once so it isn't growing bacteria and such, but Hazel at the same way on Kibble and when I switched to BARF she loved it so much she gobbled it all down.

What are the necessities to add? (Such as flaxseed oil, or any multivitamins ect. ect.)

I had several different vitamins I added to Hazel's food, but for the life of me couldn't remember what they were... I remember adding Kelp and Alfalfa to it too though.

Would it be easier to switch Cold Turky or gradually? I heard that Cold Turky doesn't effect most dogs, but I've also heard gradually is the best way to go. Coal already eats a lot of table scraps, so I would think it would be easier for him to go Cold Turky, plus since he's been eating kibble for only a year. But whichever the more experienced BARFers think best I'll probably go with :wink:

I guess it's time to dig out the old books!! :D

Any info and suggestions are appretiated, thanks!! :D

[Aroura]

Well I'd answer all your questions and tell you everthing I know, but it really is too cold right now and my hands aren't working properly so I'll answer a few questions and give you some links!

Feed 2-3% of his adult body weight per day, depending on how energetic he is and if he's still growing - if I remember correctly he is about the same age as Donna so he will be pretty much full grown, but still really energetic and filling out - am I right? If this is the case it might be good to start at around 3% and see how he goes.

I'm pretty sure he'll eat it all at once, I've never known a dog to let a tasty meal of fresh meat sit for half a day before eating it! :lol:

Things to add - well they'll be covered on the links. As a general rule I try to find whole foods that will provide the nutrients, like Kelp and Brewers Yeast, I have a tub of vitamin supplements in the fridge at the moment that I hardly ever touch - using artificial supplements you run the risk of over supplementing. One thing I have taken to doing is to provide a fair amount of fish each week - the Papillons wont eat fish, but two meals a week would be good, oily fish such as salmon or mackeral is the best. Fish contains all sorts of goodies! As do eggs, alfalfa, spirulina, extra virgin olive oil, yoghurt etc.

Coal should be fine switching cold turkey, when I get my puppy I will switch him gradually, as with all the stresses of moving and having a puppy tummy and all a cold turkey switch could give him an upset tummy! Coal should be fine, otherwise over three or four days should be ok.

Here are a few good links though -

http://www.agilityboxer.com/barfpage.htm

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

http://www.bluegrace.com/barf.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/6944/diet.html

http://www.gracegift.net/whippets/health.html

Hope that helps :wink:

[courtnek]

if you want to get him to eat all his food at one time, put it down, let him eat, but take it up after 15 minutes. That's more than enough time to consume a normal dog meal. Mine have snarfed it down in less than 60 seconds on occasion. Shara, dont feel you are "starving" the dog. It might take two or three feedings, but he'll get it, believe me. He's not eating it all now because it's there all day. If you want him to eat barf, you need to train him him to consume it all at once. raw food left laying around is a
salmonela disaster...mine crack me up. They try to eat out of the bowls before I even put it down. But thats because there's two of them. survival of the fittest. If they dont both snarf it down, the other one will take it. (Laurel learned that early on. She didnt eat her food, Freebee would...)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mydogroxy]

How much should I feed on a daily basis?

the guidelines say 2-3% of body weight. this is a good place to start, but always be in tune with coal's body. some dogs, because of any number of reasons, eat more or less than this. if he seems constantly hungry and too thin, add more meat. if he's too fat, cut some out. you'll eventually find a good balance.

What are the necessities to add? (Such as flaxseed oil, or any multivitamins ect. ect.)

I had several different vitamins I added to Hazel's food, but for the life of me couldn't remember what they were... I remember adding Kelp and Alfalfa to it too though.

i don't use any artificial supps or vitamins. a dog can get everything he/she needs from a good balanced diet. dogs in the wild wouldn't have access to artificial supps, so why give them in a raw diet? that said, i do add oils, apple cider vinegar, and honey now and then.

Would it be easier to switch Cold Turky or gradually?

cold turkey!!! i suspect most dogs getting a mix of raw and kibble would not eat the kibble anyway and just wait until they were given more raw.

good luck!

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks Guys!!
And thanks for th links Aroura! :D

Court - I have thought about that, but would rather not. While he is MUCH MUCH better then he use to be with LOTS of training and constant reinforcement, Coal is STILL food aggressive. This is one other thing that concerns me about the BARF, since it's yummier he may be MORE protective over it :-?

[courtnek]

Shara, he will show LESS food aggression if he gets used to you taking his food away. he needs to learn that YOU control the food. YOU can take it away whenever you want. Trust me...

[Guest Anonymous]

courtnek napisał(a):

Shara, he will show LESS food aggression if he gets used to you taking his food away. he needs to learn that YOU control the food. YOU can take it away whenever you want. Trust me...

Actually Court, that was the method I used that caused the aggression :o He was the paranoid I'd take his food away, he was fine before I started doin it :-?

[courtnek]

theyn I'd have second thoughts on barf. you cant let raw feed lay around all day. It will spoil, and could make him really sick. You could try putting a short 2 ft leash on him, pull him away from his food, take it up for 2 or 3 minutes, then put it back down. Just until he gets the idea that even though you took it away, you intend to give it right back. break him in slowly as it were....

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks Court, I'll probably try that!

I'm pretty sure he'd gobble it all down right away if it's BARF anyway... when we give him scraps it's gone before the bowl hits the floor :o

[Horsefeathers!]

I have had similar problems with Pauly in regard to food. He can be very "demanding" about his food. We have two designated feeding times each day and they usually have half an hour to eat, though it NEVER takes anyone that long. It is very important to me to know that I can take anything away from my dogs. I'd worry that if I can't take their food, I wouldn't be able to take away something they truly shouldn't have, but may have acquired. I don't know if it'll help you, but with Pauly, he has to earn every single meal. He must sit, stay and wait indefinitely until I give him his food and then he was initially handfed each and every single morsel when we first started this. He didn't just have an entire bowl to himself. Now he does get an entire bowl, but he still must sit, stay and wait. When he gets pushy, he doesn't eat. He will sometimes sit and growl or jump up and run in circles. The first time he growls, the bowl is put away and we try again a few minutes later. If he persists, he just flat out misses that meal. By the time the next mealtime rolls around 12 hours later, he's much more cooperative. He's also the type of dog (sounds similar to Coal) that we absolutely cannot use any kind of negative reinforcement or punishment. Butting heads with him and demanding, or trying to punish him only makes him more afraid and more aggressive, so we have to be very matter of fact about it, not angry at all. Kind of like "oh well, guess you're not hungry, see ya in another 12 hours." That's what we want him to think he's saying when he growls and complains... that he's not hungry. It's really working. Coal sounds like he may be similar.

Pauly also has a problem with having his bowl handled while he's eating. I do exactly what Courtnek was saying. I keep a kennel lead on him when he eats. That gives me total control. When he is eating, I will instruct him one time to sit. Of course, he often doesn't the very first time, so I'll give a bit of encouragement with the lead by raising his head and tell him again. The lead is to keep me from actually having to reach for his head while it's in the bowl *just in case* he were to snap. He hasn't, but he growls and I like that failsafe. We do this a few times during the meal and it doesn't take long until he willingly lets me reach for his bowl while he sits and waits. I usually pick it up, praise profusely when he doesn't complain/threaten and immediately put it back down while he sits/stays. It's a work in progress, but he is really doing well. I don't know if this dog ever had to worry about being hungry, but he is very food oriented, not only worrying about his bowl, but constantly "scavenging" for food all day long.

I'm sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries, but I really do think it's a very necessary evil to be able to handle Coal's food at your will and not his. I'd hate for him to get hold of something he shouldn't have and you have to be afraid to take it from him (dropped medications, sharp objects, any number of dangerous items). That could be a potentially life threatening situation. Also, as Courtnek pointed out, I really don't think you'll want to have fresh meat and other foods lying in a bowl for hours on end.

Just trying to help. Take what you can use and leave the rest behind. :wink:

[courtnek]

Thanks HF - another trick, using the lead, is to pull the dogs head up from the food, make him sit, and then add something to the bowl. A small piece of cheese, a piece of bologna, etc. even a few more kibbles will work after a while. The dog then learns that mom reaching into the bowl, or picking it up means something GOOD happens. I use this with all my dogs, although none of them need leads now. I reach down while they;re eating, pick the bowl up (Freebee gives me that "look", "where are going with my food????"
but never gets aggressive) and then I put a treat in it, even a milkbone, and the dog learns that losing the bowl could mean something good will happen. I dont treat them everytime, once they have learned. Sometimes I just put the bowl back down, or I reach in and stir the food around while they watch. They know its a crapshoot. I will also reach down, while they are eating out of the bowl, and gently nudge them out of the way, then put a treat in the bowl for them. They know that i can do that. Now I dont even have to nudge them. I can reach in their bowls and drop off a treat anytime I want. They both lift their heads, and wait. for the cheese, the bologna, the milk bone, or a few extra kibbles.

[Guest Anonymous]

I really really really DO appretiate your guy's advice, HONEST!!! But everything you've mentioned I've already been doing EXCEPT the lead! :lol: :wink: he has improved greatly with this, my only concern is if it's BARF, since it's yummier, we may have to go back to square one... but if we do, and he learns eventually, then it will be worth it :wink:

[courtnek]

the lead is the missing piece of the puzzle Shara. I would never try to take something from a dog with out the lead. Not until he has been trained to give it up willingly. the lead, from an early age, tells them tha YOU are in control. During walks, during recall training, during agility.YOU have the lead, and YOU can make them do what you want. Or keep them away if they dont behave. This is just another training piece. And as HF has mentioned, a very important one. maybe most important. If Coal got ahold of a bottle of aspirin, would he give it up? If not, it could kill him.
he has to be willing to give up things you dont want him to have. food, pop tops, aspirin, panty hose.....doesnt matter. he needs to let you take whatever you want away from him. for his safety, and yours...

[Aroura]

mydogroxy napisał(a):

the guidelines say 2-3% of body weight. this is a good place to start, but always be in tune with coal's body. some dogs, because of any number of reasons, eat more or less than this. if he seems constantly hungry and too thin, add more meat. if he's too fat, cut some out. you'll eventually find a good balance.

Agreed completely! Can you believe, Montie needs about 6% of his body weight every day, while Tessa only needs about 1% :o

[Guest Anonymous]

actually he's pretty good usually when he has something he's not allowed! As soon as I say "LEAVE IT" in my strict "I mean business" voice, he cowers down and drops it, USUALLY. SOMETIMES he DOES try the chasing game though, but I always catch him :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

Here is an article I found on food aggression, I found this in a web site (not a forum) ...sounds like you are doing the proper training...but, there may be some thing listed in this article which may be different.

Teach him the "Leave It" command using a lot of praise and good food treats. During this time also practice this exercise: take the dog to his empty food bowl. Put him in a "Stay" and drop a treat into his food bowl. Release him, let him eat the treat and give a lot of praise. Then, tell him to "Leave It" (his empty food bowl), pick up the bowl, put a treat in it, then give the bowl with the treat in it back to your dog. Praise him for a good "Leave It" as he eats his treat.

After your dog happily responds to the Leave It command (two weeks - one month) then, begin putting your dog in a "stay" and dropping the treat into the bowl, releasing him with praise while he eats the treat (same as before). But the next step is different. This time, drop the treat into the food bowl BEFORE you tell him to "Leave It." When you say "Leave It," pick up the bowl with the treat in it and praise your dog for a good "Leave It!" Take the treat out, inspect it, and give it to him with praise. Repeat this exercise for many weeks until your dog readily and happily "Leaves" the bowl with the treat. Then you can do the same exercise with a little bit of his food (after) dinner time - so he is not real hungry. After a few weeks of that, you can use the "Leave It" command at his regularly feeding hours.

It is important that your dog thinks of these "exercises" as a FUN GAME. He should always be praised, never scolded, and "helped" to do the exercise correctly so he can receive praise.

When working with a dog like this it is VERY IMPORTANT that you teach him with PRAISE. You want to harness his "Will To Serve" (WTS) so that he becomes happiest when he pleases you. Presently, he has a high "Will To Power" (WTP) that undermines your attempts to scold him. So... never scold him - TEACH him instead. Teach him how you want him to behave. He's behaving the only way he knows how and its probably WORKED very well for all of his life! You need to give him a reason to change his behavior. You can find out more about WTP and WTS at Meisterfeld's Psychological Dog Training website.

Take your dog to an obedience class AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. This will strengthen the bond between you and your dog and will help establish YOU as leader. Be careful using harsh corrections with your dog. Harsh corrections or scolding can many times back-fire on a dog like yours. He perceives the correction as a "threat" and reacts instinctively to your threat by showing aggression. It is very natural for him. Your perceived "threats" create a confusing and unstable atmosphere for your dog and lessens the bond between both of you. How can he "trust" you if he thinks you're always threatening him?

Never say "NO," always say "NO SOMETHING!" Say "No Chewing" "No Growling" etc. When ever you say "No Something" always follow it by giving a positive command and praising your dog for it. For instance - say "No Growling" then say "Sit!" When he sits, say "GOOD SIT!" and praise him for it. Every time you say "NO" it is an opportunity to praise your dog and teach him a lesson. Also, instead of saying NO, try to use POSITIVE commands whenever possible. Don't say "NO NO NO" Say "LEAVE IT!" And when he leaves it (or you pull it from his mouth) say "GOOD LEAVE IT!" and praise him.

It is your responsibility to teach him how you want him to behave. It is also necessary to develop a close bond with your dog so that he WANTS to serve you. If you teach your dog with praise, he will learn that pleasing you is a good thing and he'll be more willing to do so. You may also want to teach him the "Settle" command, as this can confirm your Leader position.

So, neuter him, take him to obedience class, start PRAISING him for all the GOOD things he does, and teach him the "Leave It" command. Before you attempt to use the "leave it" command on his prized food or toys - be sure he understands the command and can perform it well (and gets praised) with items that are not his "property."