Hey Odnarb

[Guest Anonymous]

Down below, in a thread that got locked (apparently because substantive issues were being discussed), you mention that you are getting a new puppy? Tell.


primrose

[odnarb]

[quote name='primrose']Down below, in a thread that got locked (apparently because substantive issues were being discussed), you mention that you are getting a new puppy? Tell.


primrose


Malinois arriving on Saturday. Here's a link to the litter he's coming from.

http://members.aol.com/malndobe/litterh.htm

[Guest Anonymous]

Yikes. You are actually doing it? Terrifying, isn't it? I was hoping you would opt for a malinois, and it looks like a nice litter (I don't know what all those letters mean, but since the dam is CHIC, I assume that means somehow she is OFA, even though it isn't listed specifically), but obviously they are French Ring superstars. So I guess you are planning to devote the rest of your life to French Ring?

You are right that this puppy might get a CD quicker than poor Grant. I will be interested to hear your observations and experiences about training the two.

Do you know which puppy you are getting? Will he have to be shipped or will you be able to go pick him up?

primrose

[odnarb]

[quote name='primrose']Yikes. You are actually doing it? Terrifying, isn't it? I was hoping you would opt for a malinois, and it looks like a nice litter


I did, and I'm pretty darn excited! I can't wait, Saturday seems like a year away right now :D

(I don't know what all those letters mean, but since the dam is CHIC, I assume that means somehow she is OFA, even though it isn't listed specifically)

You know, I have no clue what CHIC means. I should find out, LOL.

Her hips and elbows are through GDC, which I think was Genetic Disease Center. I'm not even sure if they are around anymore, I think they were through UC Davis. We did hips and elbows for a Malinois for GDC at work several years ago. I don't remember all the details about it, but I do remember thinking that is was better than OFA when I went through the paperwork. I wish I could remember why I thought that, I have terrible short term memory.

I would have prefered that the sire have eyes and elbows done as well, but he's eleven, can still see and is going strong. The litter was too good to pass up.

but obviously they are French Ring superstars. So I guess you are planning to devote the rest of your life to French Ring?

It pretty much rules my life right now. LMAO

This particular breeder does a lot of different activities with her dogs, and I'm looking for a nice jack-of-all-trades dog. If he doesn't make FRIII, I won't be heartbroken. I want a dog who can do a bit of everything.

You are right that this puppy might get a CD quicker than poor Grant. I will be interested to hear your observations and experiences about training the two.

I think it will be very interesting!

Grant is not a particularly biddable dog. He does what he wants, when he wants. Sometimes I can find things to motivate him, sometimes I can't. He's getting more handler sensitive as he ages, and biddability is increasing, but it's still not anything like Brando or my late Rottweiler. Last night, he decided he wanted to roll in the grass instead of do bitework. Normally, bitework is the best thing in the world to him. Decoy standing over him moving about in an inticing manner, decoy slapped him playfully on the rear end, I commanded him to go after the decoy, nope. He just continued to wiggle on his back in the grass, that's what Grant wanted to do at that moment, and that's what he did. When doing agility, sometimes he just plain doesn't want to jump, and nothing is going to make him jump. Try again later in the day, and he's a jumping fool! And if he doesn't want to do obedience, screw it :-?

Another of his issues is that he likes to show off for a crowd. He enjoys making people laugh (generally at my expense). At training, and often at matches, there isn't much of a crowd watching, and he performs beautifully. At most trials there are spectators. The combination of his lack of biddability and desire to be a canine comedian leads to some rather interesting behavior :o

I'm expecting a more serious, focused dog out of the Malinois. Grant isn't an idiot by any means, he's just different. I expect that he will title eventually, but there will be a lot of NQs along the way. I'm thinking of buying this shirt, just to wear when we trial in various venues...

Do you know which puppy you are getting? Will he have to be shipped or will you be able to go pick him up?

primrose

Yes, the one called "Harley." When he gets here, his name will be Harry. He's being shipped via air with a littermate. A guy that I know is getting one of the other pups.

[cheekymunkee]

Another of his issues is that he likes to show off for a crowd. He enjoys making people laugh (generally at my expense

That's a bully for you!! My Munkee will do almost anything to make me laugh!

Debby

[odnarb]

[quote name='odnarb']

You know, I have no clue what CHIC means. I should find out, LOL.


I learn something new every day!

For those interested...

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't wait to hear your impressions of little Dirty Harry and your experiences with training him. Lots of people only have experience with training one breed, and just have no clue how different dogs can be. They just think that how their particular dog is is how dogs are.

Having a dog who is highly motivated to work is a whole different ballgame and quite a blast.

primrose

[Guest Anonymous]

Having a dog who is highly motivated to work is a whole different ballgame and quite a blast.

How would you know?

Do you actually have a dog?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='guest123456']

Having a dog who is highly motivated to work is a whole different ballgame and quite a blast.

How would you know?

Do you actually have a dog?

Yes. I have three permanent dogs and occasional fosters. Plus I help out some other people with training. And it is interesting to see the difference in dogs in terms of drive to work and trainability and to relate that to the genetics of each dog.

It sounds like Odnarb's new puppy is coming from a litter where the parents are demonstrably highly motivated working dogs. One never knows with genetics, but this is the best chance to get a puppy who will, himself, have a lot of interest in doing a lot of things, and I predict that Odnarb will have a very good time with him.

primrose

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='primmorse'][quote name='guest123456']

Having a dog who is highly motivated to work is a whole different ballgame and quite a blast.

How would you know?

Do you actually have a dog?

Yes. I have three permanent dogs and occasional fosters. Plus I help out some other people with training. ...
primrose

cool!
with that information, I can track you down and stalk you.

:evilbat:

[Carolk9s]

cool!
with that information, I can track you down and stalk you.

:evilbat:

Now that is just ugly.

[courtnek]

what was THAT all about?

While I dont always agree with Primrose either, this particular post was not demeaning, menacing or even slightly bad.....

and by the way. STALKING IS NOT ALLOWED HERE....


:evil:

[Guest roo]

:o well well welllllllll :roll:

Me thinks these sad sad guests should start a saddo forum, they really p*** me off, IP address alert :lol:

remove the retards

[courtnek]

I agree with you Roo, this is getting really ridiculous....

to all of you people who want to invade our site and be nasty abusive and insulting,

GO ELSEWHERE. WE DONT WANT YOU HERE...

:agrue:

[Guest roo]

:evil:
Well i for one am asking you dear member/strange guest

Please please stop being so ridiculous

If you stop this now, we can all forget your strange mind
If you continue to make these posts, then i for one want you named and banned

[Guest Anonymous]

courtnek napisał(a):

what was THAT all about?

While I dont always agree with Primrose either, this particular post was not demeaning, menacing or even slightly bad.....

and by the way. STALKING IS NOT ALLOWED HERE....


:evil:

Thanks for the support, although I have to say that my posts are NEVER "menacing." Nor are they "demeaning" except maybe to people who hold opposite opinions, but can't come up with facts to support them. I don't expect or want people to "always agree" with me. I want people to think about dog issues.

And it isn't "even slightly bad" to do that. Really.

primrose

[courtnek]

we'll just have to agree to disagree. And as much as we disagree, I am simply saying I am tired (as is everyone else I think) of the continual sniping that has been going on here....be it by guests, or members posing as guests. I too hope that was just a joke.

:roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

K napisał(a):

:o well according to the admin pages that "guest" is a member here...and has been involved in a couple of "guest" postings before...I hope that was meant as a joke...if not I am very dissapointed in you....Nuff said

nope... first time poster.
Primrose got the joke, as did anyone who has had previous experience with her rampaging around on boards. She'll destroy yours, as she destroyed Acme, Patty's and goodness how many others. Unless you manage her... which based on what I see with RottnPitt, you won't.

Of course SHE believes all just does is ask "civil pointed questions."

You'll find out otherwise.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='K']

nope... first time poster.
Primrose got the joke, as did anyone who has had previous experience with her rampaging around on boards. She'll destroy yours, as she destroyed Acme, Patty's and goodness how many others. Unless you manage her... which based on what I see with RottnPitt, you won't.

Of course SHE believes all just does is ask "civil pointed questions."

You'll find out otherwise.

Oh well the admin pages have been wrong before :-? ...I do know all about Primmy...and so do many members here...you dont need to worry about us..the Dogo family is very closely bonded and Primmy cant break that...no matter what she trys...her "civil,pointed questions" will be answered to the best of our members abilitys ....and as for the R'N'P saga...I have no idea what you mean?..we were there..we went through it...we came out the other side just fine!

**************

You know, it is just kind of odd that you guys tolerate, and even participate in, random, free floating insults directed toward me without any basis in fact. I actually don't think it was a "joke" that this poster tried to highjack this perfectly reasonable thread about Odnarb's new puppy into an insult session directed toward me. I find it strange that this happened. Of course, the insults directed toward me are never specific (i.e. "primrose said this on this date and it was really a bad thing to say") because they can't be, because all I do is talk about dog issues in ways that make irresponsible breeders and the people who support them uncomfortable. Instead they are baseless ("Primrose destroyed Patty's Dog Park and Acme") or even subtle and implied ("I do know all about Primmy")

By the way, I'm pretty sure that Patty's Dog Park is not "destroyed," (last time I checked, it was trudging along the way it always did), just kind of boring. And Acme crashed right after some of the pit bull community started using it as a reason to encourage pit bull owners to boycott Petsmart (the board's sponsor) nationwide after spamming it a number of times. Um...it didn't take a crystal ball to see where THAT was going to lead.

But next time you hear how bad I am, check the post for specific details about what I said that was bad. You won't find any because what I said that was "bad" was merely something that the poster didn't like hearing but couldn't counter with facts. I'll welcome having a civil discussion here.

primrose

[Guest roo]

:o
Ok Primrose/ guest
Join this community, lets have some real conversations/ debates
What do you own?
what do you do?
how old are you?
please tell me your thoughts on dog auctions
on backyard breeding
on breeding
on showing
on judging
I is happy to talk this :lol:
start a new topic and off we will go :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

roo napisał(a):

:o
Ok Primrose/ guest
Join this community, lets have some real conversations/ debates
What do you own?
what do you do?
how old are you?
please tell me your thoughts on dog auctions
on backyard breeding
on breeding
on showing
on judging
I is happy to talk this :lol:
start a new topic and off we will go :wink:

Well, I'll answer some of that. I won't answer any personal questions, because there are some internet folks who are just a wee bit too eager to get personal information on me (one person who advocated the breeding of wolf/dog mixes offered a cash REWARD for my identity, and I don't think it was to know where to send my birthday card)

I currently live with four dogs. The permanent dogs are two shelter dogs, one responsibly bred purebred. The fourth is a foster dog. I adore them all and do agility, obedience and tracking with them.

Interesting that you should ask about breeding since I just came back from my national specialty where lots of folks were asking me if I was going to breed my bitch. I personally won't breed my own dog unless and until she has titles at both ends (and since I rarely show her in conformation, that might never happen...those darn agility trials take up most of my free dog weekends). I may well not breed her even if she does get titles at both ends, but that is a minimum. But I won't criticize a breeder who at least titles all breeding stock, (even if it is not at both ends) and does all applicable health screens and agrees to take all puppies back for life. Permanent ID (tattoo or microchip or both) before the puppies leave the breeder is pretty much required, too.

Any breeder who does breed dogs without titles, or who doesn't do all applicable health screens is pretty much a backyard breeder in my book.

This doesn't mean that every single breeder who breeds only titled dogs and has done all applicable health screens is a great breeder. They aren't. But the chances of finding a truly irresponsible breeder in that group is pretty small. The chances of finding one just by listening to the junk that breeders spout ("I don't need to show my dogs to know what a good Bulgarian Downsnout is" "There's never been any hip dysplasia in my stud dog's lines, so I don't need OFA" "You don't live with the titles, you live with the dog") is gigantic.

So my definition of a backyard breeder is (for starters) somebody who doesn't title and health screen all breeding stock. What's yours?

primrose

[courtnek]

" class="ipsImage" alt="">

I think we've hit some comon ground. Pleased to meet you...

I agree. I think that breeding has, unfortunately over the years, become more for looks and show quality than anything else. I disagree with that, and I'll explain why, although you probably already know.

WE made these dogs. We bred them to do certain tasks for us. To hunt
(the Hounds) to retrieve, (the Retrievers) to protect (the Guard Dogs)
we bred a dog (the Bloodhound) whos; sole specific purpose is to find people!! Come the 20th century. There arent that many people in urban areas who hunt. The police still use the Guard Dogs, and the Bloodhoounds. The regular people? we want pets. We buy these dogs because we like their looks, or what we hear they can do, or because we feel we need protection (and I can go into a COMPETE dissertation on THAT!) We are really no longer using them for what they were bred for. Yet their breeding ssays they NEED to do these things. I believe this is where a lot of pet owners get into trouble. You cant lock a Border Collie up in an apartment, and expect it wont destroy the place if it doesnt get sufficient mental and physical exercise. Hunting dogs (I have a hound) need to RUN. Guarding dogs will GUARD - best have complete control over that puppy. I'm sure you get my drift.

In order for any of these dogs to be "normal", they have to be bred properly, made sure that illness has been, to the best degree possible, bred out. That means certs, OFA's, etc.

I dont believe that's what the show breeders are doing. And I think the dogs are suffering because of it.

So, my take> agree or disagree...ALL dogs should be both field trialed (at what they were bred for) and then show bred. They may not be as "pretty", but I personally believe they would be a whole lot more stable...

just my take. take or leave it, as it goes...

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='courtnek'] " class="ipsImage" alt="">

I think we've hit some comon ground. Pleased to meet you...

I agree. I think that breeding has, unfortunately over the years, become more for looks and show quality than anything else. I disagree with that, and I'll explain why, although you probably already know.

WE made these dogs. We bred them to do certain tasks for us. To hunt
(the Hounds) to retrieve, (the Retrievers) to protect (the Guard Dogs)
we bred a dog (the Bloodhound) whos; sole specific purpose is to find people!! Come the 20th century. There arent that many people in urban areas who hunt. The police still use the Guard Dogs, and the Bloodhoounds. The regular people? we want pets. We buy these dogs because we like their looks, or what we hear they can do, or because we feel we need protection (and I can go into a COMPETE dissertation on THAT!) We are really no longer using them for what they were bred for. Yet their breeding ssays they NEED to do these things. I believe this is where a lot of pet owners get into trouble. You cant lock a Border Collie up in an apartment, and expect it wont destroy the place if it doesnt get sufficient mental and physical exercise. Hunting dogs (I have a hound) need to RUN. Guarding dogs will GUARD - best have complete control over that puppy. I'm sure you get my drift.

In order for any of these dogs to be "normal", they have to be bred properly, made sure that illness has been, to the best degree possible, bred out. That means certs, OFA's, etc.

I dont believe that's what the show breeders are doing. And I think the dogs are suffering because of it.

So, my take> agree or disagree...ALL dogs should be both field trialed (at what they were bred for) and then show bred. They may not be as "pretty", but I personally believe they would be a whole lot more stable...

just my take. take or leave it, as it goes...

Well, yes and no. Actually, I believe that most dogs should be family companions first, working dogs second. There is nothing wrong, in my view, with wanting a wonderful, stable companion dog. Every golden doesn't have to be a field trial dog, and a typical field trial golden will have WAY too much drive and energy to be the perfect family pet that a carefully bred conformation bred golden is likely to be.

Plus the conformation dog will be gorgeous and you can scoff at this if you want, but people like pretty dogs. Many if not most people pick their spouses partly on looks, so it is pretty unlikely that they will stop picking their dogs that way. Pretty dogs find better homes and stay in them more permanently than do unattractive dogs.

I actually have no problem with people who breed extremely stable, couch potato labs and goldens from conformation lines. The vast majority of guide dogs look a whole lot more like the goldens and labs you see in the conformation ring (well, the guide dogs aren't as fat as the conformation dogs, generally) than they do like the labs and goldens you see performing at field trials. This is because a field trial lab is WAY too driven and headstrong to perform as a guide dog. And the traits that make a great guide dog (stability, friendliness, trainability, intelligence, composure) are what most people are looking for in family companion, as well. They neither need nor want the field trial dog's energy/drive and there IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

Moreover, I think you are not being particularly fair when you imply that "show breeders" are not doing health certifications. I would be willing to wager that you will find a MUCH higher percentage of labradors who are OFAed and CERFed among show breeders than you will among hunters who are breeding strictly for the field. Border collies have a pretty serious incidence of hip dysplasia precisely because so few people who bred border collies strictly for working ability didn't bother to OFA them.

You are correct, however, that people who get dogs that are close to their working roots need to know what they are in for. Border collies are a good example. There are plenty of great breeds for people who have no desire to actually work with their dogs. But don't get a border collie and expect it to stop needing to work. Don't get a pit bull (at least until pit bull breeders come to their senses and stop at least tolerating the breeding of dog aggressive dogs) and expect it to get along at the dog park. Don't get a labrador from field trial parents and expect it to behave like your neighbor's lab from champion (conformation) parents.


The thing about breeders who actually title all their breeding stock is that they are likely to know about these distinctions and to prevent owners from getting the wrong dog. They don't just say that the dog has a "great" temperament. Both the field trial labrador and the conformation labrador have "great" temperaments. But they are so different that they belong in radically different homes. I trust the person who titles his/her dogs a whole lot more to make that call than I do the person who is breeding dogs to pay for a new pool.

primrose

[Lokipups]

Primrose and Courtnek, here's a great article from Terriermen, somebody's finally getting it!

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

[courtnek]

thank you Loki, and I LOVE the sig with the "Zen" dogs....

this is my point:

We [the AKC] have gotten away from what dogs were originally bred for. In some cases we have paid so much attention to form that we have lost the use of the dog.[quote]

I agree with Prim that a normal housedog for most people is best. They arent going to hunt it, they arent going to field trial it...but I honestly believe that the show ring has done them damage in the genetics department. Shepherds now have sagging hips, dysplacia is common.
I am not saying that the average dog owner should have a field dog (I have one, A field trialed foxhound, and it has taken a lot of work to make her "house happy") and I agree that people want "pretty" dogs, but whne you breed too closely in the gene pool, and too far away from their roots,
you end up with unexpected problems. My post was meant to say that even show dogs should show some field capabilities. I think if the breeders were made to breed the dog to its original purpose, and make it as pretty as it can for show, that the dogs would be more stable. I am 47 years old. I have watched the dogs get "prettier", and the temperaments get worse.
and also the extra health issues....

My first dog was a golden, bred on a farm that sold them to the Seeing Eye. and people wanting pets, of course. The breeder made sure that every dog had the capability of doing what they were originally bred for,
by doing retriever tests and scenting and sight tests. It was a good mix, my Golden never gave me an ounce of trouble, except for wandering off now and then when he managed to get out. He always came back. It's a given with a scent/sight dog. They will escape and check out the great outdoors if given the chance. He was never aggressive, loved everybody, but could swim like a fish and retrieve anything. I think you can blend the two "opposites" and come up with a healthier, more stable dog.