Do I reward him to much??

[imported_nea]

Something I've been wondering about lately is if I try to hard to motivate Web. I try to use clicker training as much as possible, and that does involve lots of treats. But even when I don't use the clicker I tend to feed alot, and use toys to reward him with. When he does something good I show how pleased I am by playing a bit with him by running/jumping and praising him enthusiastically. When I'm training at home I almost always give treats/toys for something he's done right. Often in "real life" I treat too, but not always.
I do not want him to become dependant on treats or toys in order to do what I ask him to do. I really don't. I don't want to overuse that help, but I want to take advantage of how it motivates him too. I've noticed how lately he will lie down like a flash if its right before dinner time for him. Other times he lies down in his own pace. With his trick high five, he does it only when he feels like it. Which is usually when I'm holding a treat, or have the clicker out. I feel like I have to make a huge deal out of him whenever he does right. I'm getting tired of it because I wonder if I'm underestimating his eagerness to learn, and I'm worried that eventually he'll work for the food or play and not because he enjoys working with me or learning new things.
For example retreiving. He is a retreiver and naturally loves carrying things in his mouth. He loves it when we practise the more "formal" retreiver, he joyfully bounds to the dummy and then does some zoomies before coming to me with it. When he does I make a huge fuss out of him. Someday I want to do hunting/retrieving tests with him. They seem quite tough- the dog has to bring back many things and during several hours. I don't know if youre allowed to give tidbits to the dog during them or not- but during real hunts, a flattie is expected to keep going for an entire day retreiving things. Now I know that Web is still a puppy and all that. But still, shouldn't the actual retrieving be a bit of a reward too? In the book about flatties I have it says how retrieving is a "self-motivated" thing to do, or soemthing to that effect. Is all my wild praise and treats really necissary? Can it do more harm than good in the long run? Would a calm and approving 'good' be as effective?

I want to be able to do things with Web and have him enjoy it for the sake of doing it, not for candy or playtime. And I'm worried that the way things are going now that isn't going to happen. What can I do?


Sorry this got so long-winded. :oops:

[kendalyn]

I would not treat him everytime he does something right. Praise should be enough to make him happy and realize he's done a good thing.

When I train Buck on things he knows well and we're just practicing, I only treat about 10% of the time. The other 90% he gets a "good boy" and a pat on the head and he's happy. If he's just learning something I treat 100% of the time when he gets it right and then gradually back off.

I think you're right to be concerned about Web being totally treat motivated. To me there is nothing more annoying than a dog holding out on a command for a treat. But I don't know if you can continue clicker training if you want to wean him off treats everytime. I don't know a whole lot about clicker training though. All I know is that you're supposed to give a treat everytime you click. I guess you could just not click when he's done something right though. Maybe replace the click with praise and a tummy rub?

Oh, and I wanted to add that sometimes I don't praise Buck at all when he does a command right. If I'm asking him to sit and stay while I answer the door I may or may not praise him when it's time for him to get up again. It depends on how busy I am. So don't feel bad if you don't praise him all the time. He'll be fine :-)

[Queen Bitch]

I read a book on positive dog training( clicker training) and the woman who wrote it suggested not treating everytime the dog does something right after it has the command mastered. Instead she suggests random rewarding so the dog never knows if this is the time that it will get one treat, no treats or a huge jackpot of treats ( praise toys etc.) so it will do the command the same as if it were going to get one. As in do it once every other time and then work it up to once every 5 times , etc etc till you pretty have the treats phased out and its just praise based.

Of course there are several other people on this forum who have actually used clicker training and can give you some expierence based advice, but in theory , it sounds like the advice I posted would be logical. :wink:

[imported_nea]

Thanks kendalyn and hillside for the advice :). I'm going to try to fase out the treats a little bit and see how that works. He is a very smart dog and I think he likes learning things, but he is also an opertunist and if he can coax out more treats then he'll do it. I need to learn to outsmart him maybe too... :-?

[drjeffrock]

It is important to keep your dog guessing. I would not treat every single time your pooch does something right. Basically, my opinion is that when it comes to rewarding, you should give the lowest valued treat that will work the majority of the time. This could be a pat on the head, scratching or a little treat. However, that being said sometimes Dex gets the mother of all treats (a cut up hotdog or some boiled chicken.) I do this to keep him guessing, wondering whats coming next. Sometimes he gets a pat on the head and a "good boy", other times he gets a cut up hotdog, and still other times he gets to play with his rope or another toy. Still other times he just gets an ear to ear grin from me. In a sense, my reaction to him can be a reward sometimes. Oppositely, if I am displeased with something he does, I can just frown, grunt and shake my head sometimes w/out a physical correction.