I've just had to make the biggest decision of my life =..(

[Aroura]

I'm crying so much, I love Lily more than anything, but I know the only thing I can do is get her pts :cry:

I've tried so hard to get her over her aggression, but she has become so bad that I can't even walk her anymore without worrying that she's going to snap her collar and kill some ones kid. I don't want her to be another statistic :cry:

I'm so upset, Lily is my life, I love her so much, I don't want her to go :cry:

She's so dangerous, I don't want to get home one day to find some ones kid dead in the yard after jumping the fence to get a ball. You all know how much I love Lily, but I couldn't live with myself if she killed or maimed some ones child, its going to happen sooner all later and I can't have that knowledge and do nothing about it.

I'm so upset I can hardly type. Why did my baby turn out like this? After everything I've done? I've socialised her and taken her to training ever since she was a pup. Why my baby? I've done everything I could, she goes for a 4km walk every day, she sees people every day, so why does she want to kill them? :cry:

Somebody, please say something to make it better. I'm so upset :cry:

[courtnek]

I am SOOO sorry Aurora...that is a hard as steel decision. But if you feel she cannot be controlled, trained, or socialized out of it, it's the best one.

Has she ever been seen by a behaviorist? Is that possible? it may not help, but maybe a diagnosis would. Also, she may have, I'm sorry to say, neurological "mental" issues. Dogs do have them, due mostly to poor breeding or illness. Sometimes, this decision is best. As hard as it is.

I heard about a bully dog who acted this way, and they had him PTS, and
found that he had a brain tumor that was causing his problems. Have you talked to the vet?

My heart goes out to you. I lost Alex due to illness, and I still cant get over that. Do what you think is best. You cant allow Lily to hurt anyone, you already know that...

My love to you. If this is what you decide to do, Lily will ait for you at the
bridge.

:angel:

[imported_Debbie]

:( I'm so sorry Aroura....... I don't know what to say.
Have you ruled out any medical cause for her agression ?
How old is Lily ? She is a beautiful girl, and I know this must be very painful.
It's very hard to make this type of decision, but only you can know what is best.
I wish you peace........ :angel:

[Aroura]

I've spoken to the behaviourist at dog training, but the thing is as long as she is trying to attack children it is a risk trying to desensatise her to them. I plan to have kids of my own one day, even if she gets to the point where I can walk her without her trying to attack everyone we pass, I will never be able to trust her with kids.

I will speak to the vet and see what they say. I'm pretty sure its just personal issues for her though, they have been progressivly getting worse since she was about 9 months old, and even before that I could see the tendancys. She's not just mental, I can startle her in her sleep and take bones off her and she doesn't even flinch, but walking her past people or dogs is just a nightmare and an tragedy waiting to happen.

The more I think about it the more I realise its the right thing to do :cry:

[izzy]

I'm so sorry to hear that Aurora, it's so hard to find the words to say. I can't even imagine how you must feel, but desicions like these are only take by great owners like you. :cry:

Hugs for you and Lily.

[Sharpeigirl]

Aroua,

I know how hard it is to put a dog down who's suffering from aggersion problems. When ever I read about a dog with these kinds of problems, I think about my Sassy girl. I tried everything under the sun to fix her problems, but It was not working and I made the toughest decission, I let her go. She couldn't be trusted around anyone, she was even becomeing aggersive towards me. I still miss my Pei girl running wild in the backyard. And I still get tears in my eyes when i see her grave outside :cry: :cry: But my heart knew it was time, and I think your heart is telling you it's Lilly's turn to run at the bridge. She'll be safe & free. My thoughts are with you.

[Aroura]

Thanks Izzy. However hard it is for me, I'm glad that its me making the decision, and not the council if she belonged to anyone else who didn't take care of her like I do and didn't make the decision themselves. Like I said, I don't want her to be another dog attack statistic :cry:

[courtnek]

I will speak to the vet and see what they say. I'm pretty sure its just personal issues for her though, they have been progressivly getting worse since she was about 9 months old, and even before that I could see the tendancys. She's not just mental, I can startle her in her sleep and take bones off her and she doesn't even flinch, but walking her past people or dogs is just a nightmare and an tragedy waiting to happen

the dog I was referring to also was harmless towards his master. Then one day bit their son.

There is no guarantee that if it is neurological you can save her. But at least you will know. to me, that would be a bit of comfort.

All love to you, in this God awful decision.

:angel:

[Aroura]

Thank you sharpei girl. Knowing that I'm not the only one whose had to make this awful decision does ease the pain and confusion a little. I'm sorry to hear about Sassy, can I ask how old she was?

Courtneck, can you tell me more about this dog? Was it a growing problem over a long period of time or was it rather sudden?

Thanks Newfie. She has indeed had a very stressfull life, but its the fact that we've settled down now and she has routine in her life, yet she is becoming increasingly aggressive every day, that worries me. She's not unwinding, she knows her place now and is becoming worse. At first when she started barking at people I thought it wasn't too bad, I had myself a great guard dog and nobody would come near me with Lily on the lead, but when she started to lunge at little kids I started to get worried. Have you ever seen a little terrier bearing its teeth and jumping around madly trying to get at another dog to attack it? This is what Lily is like, except she is a very powerful 25kg boxer going at little kids, who begin to cry in fear. This happens to every kid we pass down the street. She is a time bomb, I couldn't live with myself if she got out and killed someones kid, or even if she just bit one and her last moments were being thrown in a cold cement cage on her own, and getting put to sleep. :cry:

[courtnek]

it "appeared" sudden, at the onset. Thye had not noticed this behaviour before, but the tumor had been there for a while. The vet said there were probably signs that the people missed, until he bit. Afterwards they remembered "grumpiness" that was out of character. Refusal to obey, that was out of character. even eating habits changed. we tend to overlook the "little" things.....until they become "big" things....

best of luck to you...

:-?

[KP]

Hey Aurora. I'm certainly sorry to hear about your problem here. What kinds of training have you tried with your dog? What kinds of things have you done to try and deter her or train her out of these things?

Just to let you know the site that I run deals primarily with aggression and dominance issues among many other types of training and discussion. I would definately suggest coming over and let us get an idea of what you've been dealing with, and how you've been dealing with it. Maybe we can find out if this actually is solvable or managable before you actually decide take the plunge? I'm serious these people are amazing. My dobe would not be alive today without them. These people have learned how to manage and train these issues. Some of them do it as a daily profession.

My link is the banner in my sig.

[Guest Anonymous]

Aroura napisał(a):

She's not just mental, I can startle her in her sleep and take bones off her and she doesn't even flinch, but walking her past people or dogs is just a nightmare and an tragedy waiting to happen.

The more I think about it the more I realise its the right thing to do :cry:

God, that's as far as I've got, sorry I couldn't read the rest I'm way too upset. I'm BAWLING my eyes out here, I REALLY wish you didn't have to go through it. Right there, what you discribed, you discribed Hazel exactlly :( I know how frustrating and heart breaking it is... but no matter what i have to tell you to never blame yourself okay? I still blame myself for having Hazel PTS even though it was the right thing to do, I can't help it, I jsut feel like there was more I could have done. I'm so sorry, I send all my condolinces, I know how hard this must be on you. Give her a big hug for me alright? (And to yourself :wink:)

[Malamum]

Sweetie, I am so sorry I can just imagine how upset you are.

I know you have mentioned that Lilly is dog aggressive before but I think this is the first I have heard of her being aggressive towards people or kids. Has this always been the case or is it just a recent thing?

I can't help you with the aggression towards people but Indy is also quite dog aggressive. Walking him used to be a nightmare because like Lilly he would lunge at other dogs like he wanted to kill them. I've really been working with him on it and he is now so much better. I don't think I will ever let him off leash with other dogs just in case but he can now be around them ok on leash.

It would take me ages to type everthing I have done to get him over this so if you want to talk to me about it send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number and we can chat about it if you want.

[bk_blue]

OMG Jeanne :cry: :cry: :cry:

I don't know what to say, I'm so sorry that you feel the end is here for Lily after all you have done for her. I don't have any advice either but you can pm or call me if it helps. *hugs*

[Guest Anonymous]

Jeanne,

The reality is that you are convinced that Lily is dangerous and has the potential to seriously injure or kill a child. That is the end of the discussion, as far as I am concerned and while it is academically interesting to try to figure out what made her this way (brain tumor? stress? bad breeding?), it sadly does not change the final outcome.

You are no more able to be an absolutely perfect dog owner who does not ever risk having a dog get loose than any of the rest of us are. Even if, with training or drugs or whatever, Lily shows marked improvement in her behavior (and it is uncertain that she would, since despite all of your efforts she is getting worse), there would never come a time when you could be sure she wasn't still dangerous, since in order to test it, you'd have to put a child a risk. In fact, many children, since even if she didn't go after Billy, she might still attack Jessica.

I agree with people who say that you might have Lily professionally evaluated by a behaviorist who knows what s/he is doing. Go to a vet school to find one, if you can, since many behaviorists will take your money for as long as they can convince you that they can solve your problems and not make a bit of difference. But this is mainly just to avoid second-guessing on your part, afterwards. It seems to me that the decision you have made is the right one. Even though it is unbearably sad, remember that not making the decision could result in much, much much worse sadness.

primrose

[marion]

I don't know what to say either Jeanne. :(

Just that I feel for you and the heartache you are going through. :cry: :iloveyou:

[Horsefeathers!]

I went through it with my Penny last year. She had been behaviorist analyzed and handled, natural dieted, pain medicated (though we never did find a source of pain), medicated with downers, examined and blood paneled out the wazoo, read every available thing I could get my hands on about canine aggression, everything we knew to do, but she became increasingly worse. Her aggression was originally dog related, but the scope of the aggression just kept growing. For example, at first it was only other large dogs. Then only large dogs and females, then cats, then ALL dogs. We never were able to help her, but we were able to manage it by basically keeping our eyes on her 24/7 and keeping her isolated. It was weird. She was typically the most loving dog and very obedient. She was a joy to take anywhere and just as well mannered as a dog could be. She just had these episodes where she would "click" and you just never knew what could trigger it. The final nail in her coffin was when she began exhibiting human aggression by snarling at me, not once, but twice. Some dogs just have a screw loose and every professional I dealt with believed it was her. My vet long ago believed I should have put her down, but I couldn't do it without knowing I'd exhausted all resources. In hindsight, I KNOW it was the right thing to do. My entire household is much calmer and less on edge and I didn't realize how much stress *I* was under until she was gone. I loved the old girl, I really did, but as much as I hate to admit it, I'm so glad we made the decision to let her go. I look at it like this... no dog can be happy living like that, on the edge and wanting to be a good dog, but not quite able to resist that urge.

In my opinion, if you think Lily is a threat to people around her, particularly children, I think you are considering the right decision. I know of many, many dogs who have been turned around, but there are those who can't be and I firmly believe that. Also, I would always be concerned about the what if's. What if, while she's being "rehabilitated," she escapes and something tragic happens? Maybe this sounds really cold, but I just have a lot less desire to rehabilitate a human aggressive dog than any other problem and would never attempt it again. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying there are far too many "good" dogs with other issues besides human aggression for me to ever consider going through it again. By all means PLEASE exhaust all your available resources before making a final decision. I just don't want you to have to feel guilty or ever doubt yourself if you do decide to let Lily go since it's a decision that can't be undone. I believe that if physical problems have been eliminated (pain, diminishing eyesight, other disorders), the dog would be better off at The Bridge. Sorry if that sounds cold, but it's just MHO.

I wish you peace and serenity in whatever decision you make and know you'll do what you believe in your heart is the right thing.

[imported_Kat]

Oh gosh Aurora, I am so so sorry for your situation with Lily. One thing that springs to my mind if she won't respod to behavioural training is that she may have a retinal condition called mirror retinolatrophy. This is where the retina of the eye is cloudy. The dog sees objects in shadow and its almost as like he has blinkers on, so you can appreciate that she would be spooked if someone approached her from the side or from behind, and in a startle reaction the dogs first reaction is to snap. If you hold her near a light and can see through to the back of the retina when the light fully shines on the eye, then it may be an idea to get the vet to take a closer look at her.

This condition is notorious in Golden Retriever, Border Collies and Boxers.

Just a thought but please keep us updated and we are all here for you no matter what :wink:

[ellieangel]

Aroura I have been where you are babe and am so sorry :cry:

When we made the decision with Rio it was the hardest thing I have ever had to go through in my life.

If you feel that you can,read his memorial....it won't make it better but you will know that I understand completely.

I am only a phone call away honey....just holler and I'll be there for you.

[Aroura]

Thank you everyone so much your support. I knew you would understand. Most people when I tell them are like "why would you do that?" and haven't even heard of anyone putting their beloved pet to sleep before, to prevent what could end up a horrible tragedy.

I look at it like this... no dog can be happy living like that, on the edge and wanting to be a good dog, but not quite able to resist that urge.

That is so true, it sums Lily up completely, she wants to be good but her aggression over rides that. She is such a perfect dog in every other way.

Courtneck, Lily doesn't seem to really have the signs that your friends dog had. She doesn't do things that are "out of character", she has shown signs since she was a puppy, pushing between me and the other puppys she was with, and telling them off if they didn't back down. This turned to her always having to be the dominant player at dog training, if a dog was dominant she would get in a fight. This turned to her pulling, growling, screaming and lunging at all dogs, despite continued socialization. As for humans, it began with toddlers, and has slowly progressed upwards towards older and older people, getting more and more feirce as time goes by.

I spoke to one of the trainers at dog training this morning. She has been there through the whole thing, suggesting methods I should use to get over her problems. This woman is also a behaviourist and is a doctor of animal behaviour. She knows Lily, and she loves Lily, and she knows everything I have tried to fix the behaviour, so having her agree that it is the best thing to do really made me feel better about my decision. I have tried everything, and she can't see the behaviour getting better. The fact that I have tried everything and she still keeps getting worse makes us pretty sure it will not just go away. Even if I get to the point where I can walk past a kid on the street without her trying to attack it, can I trust her not to attack a kid that jumps the fence to get a ball? Or what about if she gets out and a little kid runs up to her to pat her? I can't be there all the time, and I will never get her to the stage where she will be reliable without my constant eye watching over her.

Hazel, big hugs to you. I remember what you went through with Hazel, I remember crying as I read your posts, and I remember hoping that it would never come to that with Lily. I don't blame myself, nor should you. I know I've done everything I can, and I know I am only doing this for the good of every one - even Lily, it would be a miserable life for her to be locked up all the time, never going for walks. I know I'll miss her terribly, I love her so much, but sometimes you've got to realise what is for the best for everyone.

Malamum, its not a recent thing. To be honest I was ashamed to admit that my dog was a potential child killer, I couldn't admit it to myself, let alone anyone else. I'm glad you got Indy under control. It is one thing to have a dog aggressive dog, a terrible thing, but nothing compared to having a child aggressive dog. I can't just keep going every day, hoping that some day I'll be able to fix her behaviour, because in the meantime she could kill some one. Although, I don't think that Lily would get over her problems, no matter what I try. Like I've said alredy, the fact that I've already tried everything and she continues to get worse is why I believe this.

Kat, I will have the vet have a look at her eye when I take her in. I don't think this is the case though because she doesn't go off only when something approaches her from the side, she ALWAYS goes off if she sees a child, even if she has seen it a long way away and has watched it approach, then when it is near and she can see it clearly she just goes off even more and wont stop until the child has gone away. She doesn't have bad eyesight, she can see things from ages away.

I'm so sorry about Rio ellieangel, he was a stunning dog. Mei-mei, I wish you all the best with Devi, I don't want you to have to go through the trauma that some of us have already been through, that I am going through right now.

Thank you again everybody, I don't know what I would do without your support :cry:

[mouseatthebusstop]

I am so sorry Aroura I have known Lily since she was a puppy I know you have worked hard with her. We are all there with you (((hugs)))

[imported_Cassie]

Aroura,
I feel really bad for what you are going through...I can emphasize with you as I have gone through this....but, probably a little worse with my Rottweiler. I was able to over come her behavior issues and her aggression towards children and other dogs...it took ALOT of positive training and relaxation techniques on my part. My Athena was so bad that when she saw a child or teenager or a fearful type person she would lunge at the end of her lead and be frothing at the mouth...she was the worst case of an aggressive dog I had ever experienced...not only did she have a dominant personality (children can be very challenging to a dominant dog...they are more likely to have assertive body language, staring the dog in the eye etc.) When I rescued my Rottie she had been left tied in a yard with no shelter and was out there to be teased by children and attacked by neighborhood dogs with no way to escape...her owner was in jail at the time and left her abdonded...the SPCA picked her up and sought me out to take her in as they knew she could never be placed in a "normal" home.
It took me about 2 years to bring her around to be the wonderful sweet dog she is today...but, it wasn't easy even for some one such as myself who has been training and trialing dogs for over 20 years. I can now have my neices and nephews over to the house...I couldn't do this at first as she would become a demon dog...I am very fortunate I live in the country and have a great spot for my dogs where I can control who comes into my yard...
If you feel as though Lily is a threat to society....and you feel as though you have done all you can with positive training techniques...then by all means have her pts...you certainly don't want to add to the statistics.

I attended dog aggresssion seminars, I had the help of my good friend who is an animal behaviorist...and even in her 30 years of dog training had she seen such a bad case of aggresion...she really didn't think we would be able to over come it...but, over come it I did :wink: it makes me very proud to see her now and how wonderfully she behaves with other dogs and children...even when out on a hike I have her so desensitized that children can even go by on bikes without her going into attack mode.

It's not a challenge many people are up for...and its a long and rocky road with ups and downs....more downs than ups...you really have to dedicate alot of time to the dog...and be able to set up situations where you dog is able to be successful so you can reward them...I used a basket muzzle ALOT with my Rottie :lol: this was so I could safey have my neices and nephews desensitize her...I also used the basket muzzle to set up situations to introduce her to new dogs...its wonderful now how she now associates new dogs and children as fun instead of a threat or prey.

I know this sounds odd, but, I really think my Newfoundland dogs had alot to do with my Rottie's big turn around in behavior. My Newf's are so easy going and laid back they taught my Athena how to be mellow...she wasn't around other high strung dogs when I was desensitizing her to children...the Newf's were with us on all of our walks...I really think they have a calming effect on her. I also had them with us when I was introducing Athena to other dogs & children...Athena still has some issues and will try to dominant any new dog she meets...but, at least now she has learned that she can display this in much more sutle ways....she has also learned how to let other dogs and children approach her...before she would be on tippy toe, head forward and ears forward...always in a very dominant stance or in attack mode...now, she will approach children etc. in a very submissive manner. That is another thing I got my neices and nephews and every one to do...my Athena's biggest weakness is belly rubs...with the basket muzzle on her I allowed my neices and nephews to rub her chest and belly while I held her....after quite some time she now thinks all humans are belly rubbers :lol: :wink:

Just because I was able to over come this horrible behavior problems doesnt mean its going to work for every one. I had alot of time to dedicate to Athena...and I was able to set up situations to desensitize her...I went against alot of advice my behaviorist friend and vet friends gave me and went with my gut instinct on how to handle different situations with Athena...every situation I used my own way of handling it...I can't even explain the techniques I used as they were natural and not written in any books I ever read :wink: and I can't stress enough that I used ONLY positive training...there were no demotion techniques used...things like that can make an aggressive dog much much worse.

In which ever decision you choose to make we all support you in your choice. Its a horrible stressful life when you own a dog which you know can possibly seriously harm or kill a child. It seems you have followed every angle there is and have sought all the proper assistance. I feel very bad for you and the big decision you have to make. You can't keep a basket muzzle on 24/7 and the more stressed out you are about this situation the worse it will be for all involved....I really have to watch out how I handle situations...if I tense up in the least on the lead or in my body language while out walking...this puts Athena on automatic guard...and even to this day if I am uncomfortable with a situation she will react to it...she is very much in tune with my body language etc. this is where the relaxation techniques came in handy for me :wink: I could take her for a walk today and have her act wonderfully walking past little children screaming and yelling and bike riders...but, the moment I give a slight clue I may be anxious...Athena will tense up a little bit.
I know it sounds as though I am saying one moment she is wonderful and the next she can be bad... :lol: but, the point I am trying to make is that she is still very much in tune with how I am handling situations. Every event in Athena's life has to be upbeat and happy...never nervous or anxious.
Good luck to you...and you have my support in any desision you make

[Aroura]

I'm very glad you were able to swing Athena around, it must of taken a lot of patience, hard effort and love on both of your behalf. The difference between her and Lily though is that Lily has become this way despite all the love and training in the world. Some dogs just have a screw loose, its unfortunate and very heart breaking, but its something you have to face, and I think Lily is one of them. If she was chained up and abused for part of her life I would understand her behaviour completely, but she wasn't. Even if I did think I could desensitise her with time and effort, where would I get the children from? I don't know anyone with children, so it would be hard to get them over so that Lily could get used to them. I've tried desensitisation with dogs, and she still goes for them despite early and continued efforts, so I have no doubt in my mind that it wouldn't work with people either.

Thanks for your help and suggestions, but sadly I really think it is the only way out to prevent a tragic accident which could cost some one their life :cry:

[Guest Anonymous]

courtnek napisał(a):

I heard about a bully dog who acted this way, and they had him PTS, and
found that he had a brain tumor that was causing his problems. Have you talked to the vet?

:angel:

Funny you should mention this. My family dog was a GSD when I was around 12 years old, we had had her for around 8 years before she turned nasty. She was a darling soppy dog who would never harm a fly but she suddenly went vicous and tried to attack everyone and everything in sight. Vet told us that she had a brain tumor and there was nothing that they could do................... remember this was quite a while ago! Broke my heart to see her PTS, only in the years that followed did I truely understand mum's reasons................. our safety!


I'm so sorry you are having to make such a choice with Lily but in the long term it might be for the best!

[imported_nea]

I'm terribly sorry, I don't know what else to say except for that. :cry: