This kind of bugged me..

[dogsgalore]

Here is some info on the e-collar:

http://www.online-dog-store.com/electronic_dog_collars.html

I couldn't find anything about epilepsy or paralysis but wouldn't it have to be a pretty strong shock to do that? I'm curious, I'd like to read about it too.
Remember, ANY training tool can be misused and not all dogs go for totally positive training, some can be very independent. :wink:

[Malamum]

I think it is very narrow minded for someone to think that just becuase they don't have a need for a check chain, prong collar, e-collar etc that nobody else should.

All dogs are different and some are so much more head strong than others. As long as these tools are used correctly then I see no problem with people doing what ever they consider necessary to ensure that they have a well mannered dog. However with that said, these tools shouldn't be used as a crutch - they should be used in conjunction with training and I guess considered a "back up" control measure.

I walk Indy on a Halti - he doesn't need it 99% of the time but I still have him wear it for the 1% that he does. For us the combination of the halti and trainng was enough but if it wasn't I wouldn't have hesitated to move up to a prong collar. However I would have ensured that someone showed me how to use it correctly first.

[Beach]

I actually always thought that dogs are a lot more pain tolerant than we are. So, I don't think that a shock that feels like nothing to me will be horrible to the dog. Let's see. When ever I get a shock from touching something it could cause epilepsy in me later on?
It comes down to abusing e collars. Abusing any type of tool to train a dog. Anything can be a great help to people that know how to use it and don't abuse it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Most dogs are more tolerant to pain then we are. You have some that are more pain sensitive (like my Smiley, lol and Crested's Bella) then others, but for the most part they handle pain 100 times better then we do. God made them that way, so that they could survive out in the wild and not be hurt and ultimately die from it.

Dogs get in fights and get bitten, pretty badly sometimes too, and they don't go hole up in the bed for a month or so and live off pain killers. Just think about it, if you were bitten by a dog, and you got bit several times on the leg and thigh, do you think you'd be up doing your normal daily routine in the next few days? Probably not, you'd prolly be limping around, taking off work, taking the pain killers the Dr. prescribed on a timely basis, and taking it easy wanting people to pawn for/over you. Dogs don't do that, they lick their wounds, maybe limp a little, but they go on about their business as normal. They have to. God designed them that way so that if they got hurt like that in the wild that they could still survive and provide for themselves.

Some of your smaller dogs, like your terrier and toy breeds might not be so pain tollerant, but I think it's mostly because they get babied and pawned over so much(which is my Smiley's problem basically..I've babied her alot in her life)..that they learn to be more "human like" from it.

I'd like to see where it has been proven, as well, that E-collars cause those things. I don't use them, but I've never really needed to. So, just in case I'd like to have an educated opinion to go by, so if I should ever feel the need in the future.

[drjeffrock]

Malamum napisał(a):

I think it is very narrow minded for someone to think that just becuase they don't have a need for a check chain, prong collar, e-collar etc that nobody else should.

:thumbs:
Well said.

[Taurus and Jada]

I agree that every dog... just as every human ... is different.
Before we bought a prong collar for Taurus I could not take him for a walk. So if my husband was not home then we would just go int he backyard... but I could not control him at all. I have to say though, that I would love some advice on how to wein him off of the prong, because I would like to be able to go back to a flat collar.
Jada on the other hand, is fine with a flat collar. I've never tried a harness on Jada because I dont need to, but they dont work for Taurus. He would find a way to pull with almost everything.... except a prong collar. !!

[science_doc]

ummmmm, I don't want to start anything here, but I would seriously doubt than anything battery operated could deliever enough electricity to penetrate the skin, much less alter neuronal function. I just feel bad when people put out scientific sounding propaganda.........you have to be very careful when you read "scientific studies"........people can make anything sound resonable. I have never used a shock collar myself, but someone else told me it gave them enough control over their hound dog to be able to have it off leash? I was wondering how that would work? I guess if the dog starts to run off, you would apply a shock? I'm not saying I want to try this, but I am curious? Hailey is learning whistle recall class right now and it seems to be working so far, but then again that's in the house, not outside, we'll see.........

[kendalyn]

I've been shocked by those collars and it's not that bad. I highly doubt they could cause any permanant damage. I'd say the strength is equal to a few static electricity shocks. Not enough to cause a seizure unless maybe the dog was already prone to them or something.

My guess is they use the shock collar to enforce a heel command. If the dog moves a certain distance from their side they use the shock. I wouldn't want to go about training a dog this way. This is just how I guess someone would do it.

[Lokipups]

There are two methods that are used with the e-collar. One is the "nick" mode, the other is the "stim". Hard to describe in writing, by I'll give it a go :) . And I'm going to preface this by saying the e-collar should not be used for teaching the command, but rather to proof it. Make absolutely sure the dog knows the command before applying a correction, it's not fair to correct a dog who knows not what he does.
Lets take recall, or come. When you call the dog back, if he does not return immediately, then you give the nick. The dog will eventually try to beat the nick, and doing the recall faster than you've ever seen. Most dogs will understand this on the lowest setting and usually only after a few times too. Great tool to ensure total proofing of the dog in every situation :thumbs: ,

[imported_Kat]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to find the research journals with being hectic the past few days. These were proven studies conducted in Utrecht and Amsterdam universities that we were given lectures on. I will find them when I get a chance but i can assure you it is not propaganda. I am not narrow minded nor do I wish to start arguing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion , and I may be more opinionated than others especially where dog training is concerned. I will openly admit that. Using an ECT collar however causes aversion behaviour as viewed with dogs body language, whimpering cowering and ears back with a tucked tail position. In surveys the dogs associated their handler with a shock and were less motivated and less quick to learn a task than dogs who were not shocked.

I will look for the papers later tonight when I get back from work, and let you judge for yourselves, as right now I am just back from my formal and am in no frame of mind to start explaining journal articles.

[Beach]

I totally agree with Lokipups. I always used the word command first. Usually a couple of times and then a low level correction. I was told by a trainer that a dog could show aggression when used. I have never seen it but she was totally against the e-collar so........My collar has 4 levels and I have never used level 4 on them. I had the collars for 6 years. I used them a few weeks and that was it. Since then I just put it one (once a year) without even turning it one and my boy listens a lot better right away.
Ok I would still like to know if we can get damaged by getting little shocks when we touch something?????????? If a dog could get damaged by low level shocks then it would only makes sense that we can too.......scary thought.

[science_doc]

Okay this ecollar thing has gotten under my skin, mostly because I used to be totally against them until I read up a bit. Here is a link with some interesting information :

http://www.online-dog-store.com/dog_shock_collars.html

Now this information should be taken with a grain of salt because this site seems to be selling these collars, but they claim that the voltage output of the collars is about the same as a static shock from a door knob. There is no way that type of voltage is going to do any damage at all.

[Lokipups]

Sciencedoc, you're right, an e-collar puts out less voltage than a phone wire. The U of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine did a study on them about 10 years ago, came up with the same info. Once again, they are not to be used to teach commands, not to be used in housebreaking (which I've heard of :roll: ), not to be used to deal with aggression problems or guarding issues. Recall is the most important command in my book, it's the one command that can save your dogs life, so I think it's imperative that the dog realizes that there are consequences to disobeying the command, and better a mild static shock than the front end of a car.

[science_doc]

Well now I'm thinking about trying to find a trainer in my area who can help me proof Hailey's recall after we finish our obedience class sequence. We are in class #1 of 3 6 weeks classes right now (totally positive re-inforcement), so that's about 6 months away. I am SO worried about her gettin loose and running off again, it keeps me awake at night. The little stinker does great on a long lead, but when she gets loose (thankfully this has only been 3 times in a year) she ignores every single recall attempt. She is also a first class door dasher.....add to that her new favorite trick of chasing loud vehicles and I'm sick to my stomach!