This kind of bugged me..

[dogsgalore]

Choke and Shock Collars:
Obedience Training or Physical Punishment?
March 13, 2000


"Choke and shock collars are designed to stop dogs from pulling on a leash or barking through the application of pain. The dog stops pulling or barking for one reason-because it hurts. Halters and reward-based training, on the other hand, can achieve more effective results without hurting dogs. The SF/SPCA uses halters and reward-based methods in training all our shelter dogs. And the results have been dramatic-dogs are making progress quicker, and many are fairly well-trained by the time they are adopted. Given that these kinder and more effective alternatives exist, the role of painful choke and shock collars is questionable at best. In reality, their use is unnecessary and often ineffective. In many ways, they may even be cruel.

Teaching your dog how to behave will not only make him more pleasant to be around, but will also help protect his safety in a world dominated by man-made dangers such as busy streets. But this simple idea has given way to a fiction that we must control our dogs by whatever means necessary.

Choke and shock collars are one example of this belief system, and are a popular way of controlling dogs. Choke and shock collars are designed to stop dogs from pulling on a leash or barking through the application of pain. The dog stops pulling or barking for one reason-because it hurts. In some cases, however, dogs do not respond to the collars-but only because they do not hurt enough. As a result, the caretaker or trainer may escalate the severity of the pull or switch to the even more painful pinch collar (a choke collar with spikes). Some dogs may become so desensitized to the pain that dangerously high levels of force are required to gain compliance.

A dog taught not to pull with a choke collar must continue to wear it-usually for months or years, and sometimes for life-as pulling on leash is quickly relearned once the collar is off. And, if the caretaker is inconsistent, the dog will likely learn that it is dangerous to pull when the choke collar is on, but safe to pull when it is off, and will adjust her behavior accordingly. Because dogs learn in very specific contexts, this behavior change makes sense. Unfortunately, rather than realize this is how dogs learn, many caretakers mistakenly assume that the dog knows better and is just being "bad." The result is often more painful application of the collars.

These techniques are not only unnecessary, but combined with poor timing (as is often the case) they are ineffective-and can actually be cruel. Not only does the dog experience the mental and physical punishment, but she also does not know how to avoid it.

Whether it is choke collars, shock collars or worse, physical punishment of dogs under the guise of "training a dog for her own good" is inappropriate and unnecessary. A trainer who believes the momentary strangling of a dog to teach her not to pull on her leash is necessary is hardly a friend of dogs-and certainly not worth the fee.

Happily for dogs, the discussion about choke, pinch, and shock collars is increasingly becoming an academic one, as alternative means of training and managing even extra-large dogs are steadily gaining in popularity. Halters for dogs-based on the same principles as halters for horses and ponies-achieve terrific control mechanically (i.e., by changing leverage points) rather than through the use of pain. There are even ways to teach dogs not to pull on their leash or to stop barking by using rewards.


Indeed, the 1990's witnessed an explosion of interest in, and development of, training and behavior modification techniques that utilize positive reinforcement rather than physical punishment as the principle means of motivation. These techniques are now widespread, well-understood, user-friendly, dog-friendly and are available for virtually every training task and behavior problem.


The San Francisco SPCA uses these methods in training all of our shelter dogs, in our dog-training classes for the general public, and in our Academy for Dog Trainers. And the results have been dramatic-dogs are making quicker progress, and are becoming fairly well-trained by the time they are adopted. Perhaps most exciting of all, in San Francisco, the euthanasia of dogs with serious behavior problems has also declined a full 12% city-wide, last year alone.


The San Francisco SPCA believes: that dogs have the right to be trained and helped to fit into our society with the most gentle methods available. And that dogs have a right to be free from physical and mental punishment."

Amen....

I am not against head collars or anything and I know that any training tool can be misused but these people seem totally uninformed about choke collars. I have started again with Jesse on a choke collar and he heels perfectly 90 percent of the time and not because it's painful or choking him, he chokes himself with a regular collar. It is simply the quick sideways pop that makes the chain chink that does it, he isn't budged an inch by it if done correctly. The choke collar is not intended to strangle the dog, only correct him with a downward or horizontal pop, no pressure on the trachea whatsoever. It's amazing the results this method brings, and Jesse is such a joy to walk with when he's being good and he enjoys it too, he's not choking himself with this collar on! I would never use one of these on my dogs if I thought it was cruel, but he dislikes the head halter more than the chain. I was hoping there would be an e-mail address so I can clue them in a bit but I guess not, I'm not much of a letter writer. :-?

What are your thoughts on this?

[imported_Cassie]

That was a wonderful article, I have trained ALL my dogs with positive training only, the results have been wonderful...my dogs WANT to please me as it brings them PLEASURE not pain. I have never had to use a choke collar on any of my dogs to teach them to stay by me on walks...actually ALL 6 of my dogs run loose and will stay with me. I taught my dogs to look at me when training to heel. I have seen many people misuse the choke collars, and I have seen alot of dogs trained on choke collars which will still pull on the lead and have the choker so taunt that it must be uncomfortable.
Negative training techniques like chokers etc. will work. But they also teach the animal to not want to be around you. Negative training techniques also cause all animals (including humans) to exhibit a stress response-fight or flight. The chemicals released in the body in this state impede learning and retention.
I have a wonderful example of how great positive training (without using any negatives) can be. My Newf Dilon is a strong willed, hard to control BIG dog...when I first got him the former owners had a very hard time controlling him in the show ring and the choker they were using was not helping...out of the ring they used a prong collar etc. the dog would obey them with this collar, but, as soon as it was off he would be as strong minded and unruly as ever. When I took him in he was a nightmare :o I started training him with positive training only and now he WANTS to please me, and he enjoys staying by my side....he has become the best obedience dog Ive had for quite some time...I am now working on his CD and hopefully next I will put a CDX on him. At the trials people will come over just to watch him do his recall...he is so exuberant and excited when he comes to me..its a sight to behold. His former owners told me I would have nothing but problems with him :lol: :wink: I proved them wrong.

[imported_Cassie]

dogsgalore, I just wanted to add that I don't have any thing against using a choke collar on a dog. I keep one on my Rottweiler and when showing I use them on my Newf's (a buckle collar on a Newf just doesnt look right :wink: ) I don't use the chokers to train my dogs with...I use the dead ring with a free lead...or I train them off lead with reward based training which works well. But, this doesnt mean that I am against using a choke collar, if you are walking your dog in a busy area a choke collar can be very useful...and by the sounds of how you use your choker you are doing it right :wink: when I take my dogs to an area where I think I may meet up with other people and dogs I keep chokers on my dogs as well. I think the point of the article is stating that the choker should not be used as a training device....I have lived through the time period of rough training techniques where the dogs where constantly popped when not heeling, hanged by the choker when misbehaving...and I literally mean "hanged"....some people would lift the dogs front legs off the ground to prove a point. I have seen others who have popped their dog hard enough to whip it in a half circle etc. there are still some people who think that to train a dog you have to use negative reinforcement when the dog does wrong...the best training methods is to reward when your dog does right and reinforce the good behavior and not to punish the bad behavior but to redirect the bad behavior to a good behavior. Heeling etc. are not normal doggy behaviors...we as humans have to understand that we should make our dogs want to do basic obedience....not force them. This is what I took out of the article you provided....but, on a daily walk when used correctly...I don't have any problems with choke collars.

[courtnek]

you hit the nail right on the head, dogsgalore....YOU know the proper method for using a choke collar. The quick snap-and-release is to remind the dog that his behavior is unacceptable. However, choke collars (now commonly called "check chains", choke chain gives off a cruel conotation)
dont come with instructions. Anyone can walk into any grocery store and buy one from the pet food department. The only instructions included are on how to put in on the dog, not how to properly use it. However, I have watched in horror as people have been dragged, or have dragged, dogs down the street by the chain. The chain wont stop the dog from pulling, unless obedience training is included in the exercise. Thats the part that people dont get. The chain doesnt train the dog, the person has to do that. So in the wrong hands, I agree with the article that the choke chain
is not a good training method. I use no-pull harnesses on both of my dogs.
Freebee used to pull terribly, and choke herself, even with command training. The harnesses work off of a different body posture, they push against it with their chest, not their necks, and it literally stops them from moving. The harness wraps around their chest, goes under the front legs,
comes up around the back and then is attached under the collar at the neck, not the throat. they can be attached without the collar at all in fact.
When they pull the harness tightens across their chest and front legs,
literally forcing them to stop without hurting them. This causes no damage to the throat or neck, with a heavy puller. I see no problem with the choke chains providing the owner knows how to use it, like you do....for the clueless, however, it can verge on cruelty.

[gooeydog]

Any tool can be misused , including halter type collars (even flat collars can cause damage in some circumstances). I've seen many a dog dig their snout til it was bleeding trying to get off a halter, either because they'd never been acclimated to wearing one, or because they disliked the collar even after being acclimated. I've also seen dogs that would continue dragging their owners down the street, wheezing away, as the owner hauled back on a choke chain. I've seen dogs overcorrected on both choke chains and pinch collars, and completely shut down (don't have enough experience with e-collars to say comment on them). What's best really depends on the dog, the owner, and the situation, but all can be useful tools when used properly.

[courtnek]

oh, Gooey, mine arent nose collars....I tried them, and while the dogs behaved well, they didnt like them at all, even after being acclimated, and Freebee designed a way to "slip" them and pull them off.

Mine are chest halters. The chest is usually their strongest area, and the halters are lightweight and non confining, providing they dont pull. When they pull, the halter tightens and stops them, without hurting them. Picture it like the pull forward, the halter stops them at the chest, and they stop pulling, kinda like it's easier to restrain a dog by the chest then by the neck if using your hands. If they're not pulling, the halter lies loosely
on them and they barely even feel it.

[gooeydog]

I didn't mean yours courtnek, I meant the head halters as were suggested in the article. I've seen what you mean, and don't think most dogs would have a problem with it.

[courtnek]

so after reading this, I took the dogs for a walk (it's blowing gale-force winds out here, more challenge) and of course Freebee starts to pull right away, and drag Laurel after her (I have a dual leash for them) and as soon as she hits the end of where the halter will give, she stops and turns to look at me like "I want to go faster!!!" she doesnt pull, she stops. After a few minutes she gives me the "look" (like, "you're not gonna let me run, are you?") and settles down to a nice walk...I find these no-pull harnesses very useful with stubborn, headstrong dogs, like Freebee. One "DONT PULL" is enough to settle her down...usually...LOL

I could heel her, but I get more exercise walking at her pace, and not mine, so I dont. She is trained to heel, and will, but then we walk too leisurely for good exercise...

:D

[imported_Kat]

My opinion: i hate chokes. prongs and shock collars and all are banned from our dog club. I do a demo with new classes with a large choke chain around my neck (disclaimer:don't try it at home!!) and pull it with the same pressure as a correction. They see for themselves the marks that it leaves on my neck... you don't see those marks on a dog as the dog's neck is concealed with fur. Also a dog's trachea and venous system has many more sense receptors than we have and as a result, dogs are so much more receptive to sensory stimulation than us humans. Research has also shown dogs that are subjected to chokes/prongs are more susceptible to coughing bouts and damaged trachea leading to food intolerances.

What I do do is allow any doubters in my class to put the chain on their wrist to try the effect. Anyone who doesn't comply with a flat collar and non-chain lead is asked to leave the floor. We don't allow chain leads as the chain slapping across a dogs face is extremely painful and sore and we don't tolerate it.

I train by motivation and positive training using food/toy/mostly voice and this is what I also instil into my classes.

[courtnek]

Out of curiosity, do you have a problem with no-pull harnesses? both of my dogs wear flat webbed collars (I dont like leather, they both sweat underneath it) and for my walks, I like to let them set the pace....better for me AND them....

just curious


:)

[Guest Anonymous]

Kat, I have to disagree about the mark on the neck. (although I have no idea about how they feel whatchama call it that you said so I'll have ot take your word for that :wink: ) I use to wear a choker on a daily basis, and don't as me WHY! But some reason people at school INSISTED on "leading" me around the school all the time. I'd get that red mark on my neck, but it didn't hurt, sometimes pinched my skin a little or my hair got caught in it, but that was about it, and I've had people really "yank my chain" (pun intended, I couldn't help it :lol: ). I don't think it would leave this mark on a dog because they DO have fur that we don't. It would be more reasonable to try this with a sleave over your arm (or a turtle neck if your doing it on your neck), although i've never tried this so I think I'll have to, and if I'm wrong, and it leaves a mark then I'll tell you your right. But as of now, I don't think there's any problem with them hurting the dog, and I don't think it leaves a mark.
I'm actually concidering purchasing a prong collar for Coal right now because I've found nothing has worked. I will NOT use this tool if I think it would hurt my dog, and plan on even testing it on myself as to see what it feels like.
Shock collars I'm against though because if the dog bumps it or whatever it will go off, I've never had experience, but have heard this over and over again now so find that they would be very inneffective.

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, just tried it with a sleave on... it DID leave a little mark, but you could BARELY see it, and it faded within a minute, and it was a very thin sleave as it was (I hate big bulky sweaters), so I still stand by what I said.

[science_doc]

I would just like to add that the big advantage to prong collars is that they will not hurt the trachea, the limited choke function of the prongs prevent them from applying pressure to the trachea like a choker will do. I researched the prong collar quite a bit before purchasing one and that's what I saw as the big advantage, the lack of dammage, cause Abbie would choke herself nearly to death on a choke collar.

That being said, I have to say that using a prong collar produced instantaneous results with Hailey, but these results did not transfer as completely to the buckle collar as I hoped. But, using the prong allowed me to exercise her without destroying my shoulder as we slowly worked our way through some obdience classes. I agree with Goo, they are a tool and for both my husky mixes a necessary if temporary tool. Now I can control Hailey with my voice enough to not need the prong collar.......but with a 4 year old rescue used to getting her way these results took a year of work! I certainly would have been pulled down on more that one occasion on ice, so I have to say that I would use the pinch collar again, but as a tool, not something permanent. I haven't ever tried the head halters, cause both my dogs tend to hit the end of a 6 foot leash at a dead run and I never wanted them to get their body whipped around by their head............but once again the class I am taking right now is going to use them next weekend and I'm not above trying anything once, I'll give you an update next week....

[Guest Anonymous]

*Deleted*

[Lokipups]

I myself use any and every training tool in my box, prong collar, e-collar, flat collar, food, toy, ball, and yes, even a clicker on occasion. The only collar I no longer use is a choke/check chain, I find that the propensity for damage is much greater with them than with a limited slip prong. I also have a policy that I will not use any training aid on a dog until I've tried it on myself. And as others here have said, ANY collar can be misused and abused. The Halti collar can be particularly dangerous if you have a dog that "bucks", I do know of one dog that snapped her neck wearing one.
Purely Positive training is great if you have a dog that responds to it, but I don't think there is any way to proof the obedience with it. When I give a known command to my dogs, they understand the consequences of their choices, and make the correct one based on their knowledge and experience, but not because they're only going to get corrected.

[Horsefeathers!]

I have to admit that I don't use prongs or choke (check) chains on any of my own dogs or fosters. My Lab was abused once by a trainer using a prong and he still cringes at the sight of one. Of course, I know it was used incorrectly. Still, it was pretty traumatic and I achieved much better results with him using a regular flat collar. I don't want my dogs to feel they have to fear me. Keep in mind that I get a lot of special needs dogs, so I reckon I have to handle some of their little psyches a lot differently than some other dogs. I'm only stating my opinion based on my specific experiences.

I'm not criticizing anyone who feels they need chokers or prongs. To be honest, I'd rather see done whatever needs to be done to keep a dog a part of the family rather than discarded due to behavioral problems, even if it's not the way I would choose to do things, myself. If that means using a prong or choker, I consider it the lesser of the evils. I'm sure there are some pretty headstrong dogs out there. I've just never had to resort to any such drastic measures with any of my own dogs or fosters. I'll be sure to check back in in a week or two. Fifty has to be the absolute worst puller on a leash I've ever had to deal with. He strains on a leash to the point where he's upright and walking on his back feet. Still, pretending to be a tree and not moving when he lunges ahead has already shown some progress, so I'm still confident I'll get the job done with a plain flat collar. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a super huge uncontrollable dog pulling me down the street. I've never had that to deal with, so I can't say how I'd handle it.

To each's own.

[mouseatthebusstop]

I would not use the collers or prods I think it's cruel
praise goes a long way

[Sharpeigirl]

I use the prong collar. I've always used one on my rotties, and I used one on Sassy. I feel they're more humane then a regular choke collar. Sassy tried to choke herself to death more then once at the end of the choke chain, no amount of popping could break her of lungeing at the end of the leash, until I put the prong on her. She still barked, but the lungeing quit.

I'm useing the prong on my current rottie Apollo, we're trying to teach him not to go after any small furry critter outside. And we're also OB training him with a prong, and he's doing wonderfully. I guess it's all in how you use them.

[dogsgalore]

When Jesse lunges I turn and walk in the exact opposite direction when he catches up I praise him and he soon quits lunging. If he starts to pull ahead I just have to let the chain jingle a bit to remind him. He did really well today, I was very proud of him. His tail was up the whole time he was having fun! I'm hoping to start taking him to town to practice.

[drjeffrock]

I agree with you Lokipups, I have a bunch of different training tools and methods. It definitely depends on the dogs. I think a Purely Positive approach in Dexter's case would be laughable.
With Dex, I alternate between a pinch collar and a Premier nylon collar (similar to a Martingale collar.)
I use a choke chain for Kira, although she doesnt need it. She doesnt pull or anything. But, it is always nice if I see an off-leash dog to be able to have complete control over her in case the dog comes up to her.
Choke chains and pinch collars are not cruel if used properly, nuff said. And neither are ecollars and muzzles. I find it quite humorous that some people see dogs w/ muzzles and think its cruel. A few weeks ago I went to my local dog park and saw an APBT that was muzzled. I could hear so many people saying "Oh my god, how could they do that to the dog??? That is so cruel!! I, on the other hand, thought that the owner was responsible, not cruel.

[midori115]

I'm glad this topic came up, as I've been having quite a bit of trouble with Oscar. Using purely positive methods works sometimes, but if he wants something or to go somewhere, he doesn't care what gets in his way. so I've been considering a prong collar.

I've tried all different kinds of harnesses, but he powers through them -- although I can hold him when he's on a harness. When he's on a flat collar, god help me because I am just not strong enough.

So, I'm looking for pointers, tips, and instructions on the proper way to use a training collar....

[Guest Anonymous]

I use Gentle gliders on Cody and Zoey at first we tired a choke collar with zoey it was too painful for US to use it on her, plus it didnt' work. GL are great. if my dogs dont have them on, i can't control them, with them on they are angels!

[Beach]

I have to admit that I have used shock collars on my dogs. And I do like them. WHY? Because it is my dogs choice to get hurt. He knows exactly what I put on his neck. AND I ALWAYS test the collar on my hand first to make sure it is working right. I have 4 levels. Level two feels like when you get shocked when touching somebody. It is more a scare but DOES not hurt. I don't really need it anymore but when I put it on my dog because he wants a bone from the other dog - all I have to do is show him the remote.
Yes, all collars can be abused. You can choke a dog with a regular collar when he pulls hard. I think most collars are fine if used correctly and not abused. Almost everything can turn into a weapon when in the wrong hands.
A couple of people borrowed it from me because their dogs liked to harass other dogs. They liked to go for walks in the park and just had a hard time doing it. First they were worried. A week later they told me that it was the best thing. They had to use it just a few times at a low level. After that a single voice command was enough.
Believe my dogs are fine and spoiled and happy. I do not abuse them with the shock collar. I used them 3 times in the last 5 years so........and then just put it on and they remembered.....

[Guest Anonymous]

Bear in mind what you feel as a shock wiill be greatly magnified to what your dog feels. :roll: Dogs perception of sensation is so much greater than ours is. Also using electric shock collars have been proven to induce epilepsy and paralysis due to the interference of nerons in the brain and spinal cord. Using a shock collar is the lazy way out. Try actually training your dog positively for dog's sake, and give it a chance, without spouting BS about it being the dog's choice to get shocked. :evil:

[kendalyn]

Bear in mind what you feel as a shock wiill be greatly magnified to what your dog feels. Dogs perception of sensation is so much greater than ours is

I'm curious about where you learned this. I'm not saying it's not true, I'd just like to read about it. I would kind of think it'd be the other way around.