science_doc Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 Okay I would like to put forth an apology for posts I made regarding P+G and Iams food :oops: I'm sorry if I offended anyone, this is a difficult topic for me because I feel defensive about animal research. It's something I have extensively been a part of in the past and I'm pretty sure will be a big part of my future. I finally broke down and read the stuff about Iams and I will agree that these tests were excessive for food testing. I could think of lots of alternatives to the types of experiments they were and I guess still are performing. I just have a hard time with anything put forth by PETA. Anyway let me say I'm sorry again. I love my dog and cats as much as everyone else loves theirs. I enjoy reading and posting at this site and I would like to continue. I'll try to contain my defensive feelings about this topic in the future and keep my mouth shut when I start thinking I know more than anyone else just because I am a researcher :oops: Quote
courtnek Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 :beerchug: forgiven.... we all get pretty heated about certain subjects...and although I dislike and distrust PETA, in this instance they may have done what they were originally founded for....the care and ethical treatment of animals. :D Quote
TDG Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 science_dog, i'm glad you read the material. i'll always be first to admit that PETA is a two-edged sword and i definitely do not support all their ideas and campaigns, but that whole IAMS thing was just disgusting and i'm glad they brought it up. i doubt there is a single person in the world who is "always right", but definitely not many who openly admit when they are wrong. it takes guts to step forward and say "i was wrong", so i commend you for doing that. there are certainly no hard feelings from my side, and i hope not from yours either. :) you are a reasonable person and love animals, and with your choice of career i hope you will have the possibilities to find many alternatives in research, so less animals have to suffer in the future. Quote
science_doc Posted March 12, 2004 Author Posted March 12, 2004 Thanks everyone for being so understanding and forgiving. There are definatley no hard feelings on my side, I'm just glad I stopped being a horses butt and decided to open my mind. I have been feeding Iams cause Hailey seemed to do so well with that food, but as soon as I find a good alternative I'm going to switch too. TDG I commed you on your choices of environment friendly products. Before I became a molecular biologist I studied ecology. I wish that there were more people out there trying to change things with their wallet. I think that is probably the only way things will ever change. Quote
mouseatthebusstop Posted March 14, 2004 Posted March 14, 2004 why can't they test by giveing a thousand owners the food for free monitoring the dogs haveing a normal life with their owners not doing any grusum tests at all Quote
science_doc Posted March 15, 2004 Author Posted March 15, 2004 Mouse, they could do that, if all they wanted to show was that dogs were happy and healthy when they ate the food. Unfortunately it seems like Iams wants to make some pretty outrageous claims and they only way they can "prove" their objectives is to do some insanely cruel experiments. For medical tests and such this type of laboratory testing is sometimes necessary to control all variables and make a valid test. There is no way to justify those types of measures for a food, after all when your dogs is sick you should give him medicine, not count on your dog food to heal the dog. Quote
courtnek Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 why can't they test by giveing a thousand owners the food for free monitoring the dogs haveing a normal life with their owners not doing any grusum tests at all Purina One is actually doing this. They are giving away Purina One Dog food, and asking people to feed it to their dogs for 10 days, then see if they like the results. They are accomplishing the same things, do the dogs get better, do their coats shine, are their stools firm, etc.... It's a sales pitch, of course, but if the owner likes the way the dog looks/behaves he will buy the product. If not, he wont. It's a justifiable and humane test. Quote
TDG Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 except for the fact that a 10-day trial isn't going to prove much. even the 6-month trials that are one option of AAFCO certification aren't really enough. what if the food gives your dog a shiny coat in 10 days or 2 weeks, but after eating the food for 3-6 months the kidneys are stressed into failure? purina has a giant testing facility, located in missouri as far as i know. they actually do real kennel testing over generations and with various groups of dogs. you can even visit this facility, and a lot of dog-related events are hosted there too. other companies give food to breeders for free, and the breeders in turn promise they will not use any outside products for a set time. that is in my opinion the best way to go about testing. or like eagle pack - sponsoring mushers. :) Quote
courtnek Posted March 16, 2004 Posted March 16, 2004 except for the fact that a 10-day trial isn't going to prove much. even the 6-month trials that are one option of AAFCO certification aren't really enough. what if the food gives your dog a shiny coat in 10 days or 2 weeks, but after eating the food for 3-6 months the kidneys are stressed into failure? I would agree with this if this was a brand new food on the market, but it isnt. Purina One has been around a long time, I have been feeding to my dogs for years, and happy with the outcome. Like I said, this is a sales pitch on their part...the food has been tested and proven to be not harmful, now they want to get people to try it and see if they like the results. For a clinical test, is the food going to cause harm? then no, it would have to be more controlled. but Iams has been around a long time too, they could have used a test like this for food compatability only. Like SD said, they were trying to make medical-type claims. A sick dog should see a vet, not change his food... Quote
TDG Posted March 16, 2004 Posted March 16, 2004 generally you are right, courtnek. what i was trying to say is that you can not know in 10 days how "good" or "bad" a food is for your particular individual dog. but that is exactly what the company is trying to do, making customers believe that in 10 days they can turn around the health status of their dog (or cat). it is also true that purina has been around for a long time, but do keep in mind that companies change hands (example: purina being bought up by nestle, pedigree being bought up by mars, iams/euk being bought up by P&G) and food formulations also change. pet food companies do not have to put a warning label on their products when formulations change and there is even a grace period of 2 months or so during which a changed formulation can be sold in the old package with the old ingredient label. Quote
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