To Snow

[Guest Mutts4Me]

I'm sorry to do this publicly, but I want it said publicly. I meant to reply to the "pitbull dies in fire" topic, but in between hitting the "Reply" button and hitting the "Submit" button, the topic was locked.

I was gone for the weekend, and boy, was I shocked when I came back! I just read 8 pages of posts and really cannot have any opinion on the matter at hand due to lack of knowledge on the subject, and it wouldn't matter if I did have an opinion, since the topic is now off limits ;)

BUT I am extremely concerned with Snow's opinion that this forum somehow supports the fighting of APBTs or any kind of dog. This is very much untrue and unfair. It is unfair. I'm sorry you jumped to that conclusion because you saw that we have ONE member who fights APBTs, Snow, but if you looked at the context, you'd probably discover that Not One other member on this board fights their dogs or believes in fighting dogs. A FEW members may see some benefit in certain kinds of "matching," and may respect those "dogmen" that do it for the "right" reasons, but (with that ONE exception) those people do not fight their dogs, either. So we have ONE member who matches pits, and a HUGE majority of members who think that any and all animal fighting is WRONG and CRUEL.

So I do not think that it is fair of you to condemn all of Dogomania as some kind of pro-fighting forum. I do hope that you'll read through the other members' posts in the "OK Fighting Ring" thread (I'm assuming that's where you discovered our dog fighting member, anyway) and realize that you were a bit hasty in making your decision. No one can make you stay, but I do believe that you'll be missing out on a lot of the good company provided by good dog owners in discussions about their happy, healthy, much loved dogs.

[bk_blue]

I agree with you Mutts and well written (though it doesn't apply to only Snow, there are more than a few people out there who have wrongly assumed we approve of dog fighting, whether it be because of our members or our ads :-? ). However, people only see what they choose to see and no amount of postulating is going to change that. :)

[Autumn]

From what I have read on this board I agree with Snow.

Maybe the majority here don't necessarily agree with Pit matching/fighting, but you most certainly *condone* it.

If someone is uncomfortable with Pit matching/fighting that's their right.

Personally, I am very uncomfortable with that too, along with what I read about *kids* owning/walking Pits out in public, turning them loose etc.

I know most cities have laws stating that kids under a certain age cannot be out in public with Pits. It's for a reason.

What I have read on this board sickens me.

[Guest Anonymous]

Of all of the boards that i go to Dogo is by far the most diverse and fun. What fun is a discussion board where everyone has the same beliefs and ideas. that would be like talking to yourself. I like to hear other takes on different topics... its what a discussion is supposed to be. I think we here are among the most amiable of people...we accept anyone we may not condone what a person does but we still allow them a voice and a chance to at least explin themselves. Now I am not saying that we are changing our minds in the least but we will at least hear the other side.

when we had that "breeder" no contracts, no testing, just a male and a female... no one here thought it was a good idea but we didnt shun that person we educated them on the dangers and what a contract is and how is should read. they stayed fora good long while and left a better breeder.

I would love for you to stay here autumn- i value every opinion and think that you are a very outspoken person with strong feelings. in a discussion setting that is an asset.


Please stay.

[kendalyn]

What fun is a discussion board where everyone has the same beliefs and ideas. that would be like talking to yourself

LOL! You're absolutely right! :lol:

[DogPaddle]

Sadly we do have 1 or 2 members who even admit to "rolling" their dogs. We do have other members who "see the value" of "game bred pits" - note if you want to continue to get "game bred" dogs than at some point you have to accept that you are condoning "rolling." So there are some truth to the statements made by Snow and Autumn. Granted verying opinions are great but I for one do not want to contribute to what I see as a problem by in anyway condoning it or not opposing it. Imagine what message might be sent to those on the fence or those uninformed or kids or impressionable folk. Here we are educated, concerned dog owners, what message are we sending by not actively opposing anything related to dog fighting?

[Guest Anonymous]

I DONT UNDERSTAND... We how is it possible that this entire board condones something that 99%of the memers here hates. They are totally against rolling, matching, fighting, sparring, or any form of canine abuse. YOU are confused.

Look around and you will see that the few members that do roll or that "see the value of rolling" are given no leeway. They are not praise or backed in anyway by the members of this board. the stand points and views are expressed and there is an agreement to disagree. they are not railroaded out of the board.

Freedom does not limit itself to waht makes others comfortable. If you look hard enough there is someone that is offened by everything that we do.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='Autumn']From what I have read on this board I agree with Snow.

Maybe the majority here don't necessarily agree with Pit matching/fighting, but you most certainly *condone* it.

:hmmmm: How???

Why on Earth do people here keep making weird, offbase comments and not explaining them (I never did get an answer about how people with mutts somehow support BYBs)?

How do we condone dog fighting?

condone : to pardon or overlook voluntarily; especially : to treat as if trivial, harmless, or of no importance

Yeah, because I don't see the majority of the members on this forum throwing fits and getting into multi-page discussions on how evil and disgusting the people who fight their dogs are. And I don't see people expressing their love of the APBT as a family companion and not a fighting dog. And I don't see people laughing when an article about how some "unfortunate" accident befell a dogfighter is posted. And I don't see people here writing letters when people lump all pit bulls together with the monsters created by the demons who fight dogs. And I don't hear people expressing concern about pit bulls who are confinscated from fighting rings, and offering support to people who try to rescue pit bulls. Or rescue pit bulls themselves. Suuurre... Dogo definitely thinks dogfighting is some harmless, trivial problem.

If someone is uncomfortable with Pit matching/fighting that's their right.

Well, yeah... No one here's going to argue with you, since the majority of us are uncomfortable with pit matching/fighting.

What I have read on this board sickens me.

Again... When you make statements like that... why don't you explain them? A lot of stuff I read on this board sickens me, too. And by that, I mean all the articles about dogfighting, abandoned and abused animals, editorials calling for the destruction of an entire breed of dog based on stereotypes. But our members don't agree with that stuff. Our members post articles like that to raise awareness on issues and even to garner support for people and animals who need it. So some of the stuff I read on this board sickens me. But with few exceptions, Dogomania members do not. I love this forum and the people here. If I for one minute thought that this forum condoned dogfighting or animal cruelty in any form, then I would leave without hesitation.

If you think the same thing, then maybe you should leave so you aren't exposed to the animal cruelty that you feel is condoned here, and you won't be accusing us of such awful things. But I don't want you to leave. I don't want anyone to leave. I want you to realize what good people reside here, and I want you, and everyone else, to be comfortable here. So do what you need to get any misunderstandings clarified for you so that you can stay here comfortably.

[DogPaddle]

Good points RnP and Mutts4Me.

As long as the majority of members continue to post their opposition to dog fighting etc - I don't think that a claim that "the majority" "condone" these sorts of things would be accurate.

I could be wrong but the position of Snow and Autumn was that people who fight or condone fighting shouldn't be here - therefor we can assume that they hold the opinion that they should be banned. I am not on either side of the banning issue and was divided and concerned the last few times this came up.
I have a devil's advocate sort of question for Autumn and Snow:
What purpose would banning the offending members serve? What positive effect would it have? I'm not being flippant, I'd really like to hear, make a reasonable, strong arguement and you may convince people.

[midori115]

very well said Mei Mei.

[Snow]

Condone does not mean actively support. So you have misunderstood. It is very obvious that the majority of people here do not support pit breeding or fighting. I never suggested otherwise. "Condone" means to overlook and disregard without protest or censure. To turn the other way. To ignore. It is an act of omission, not commission which amounts to a tacit acceptance.

You would not permit a person to speak here casually of his underground actions of raping children or murdering people under the guise of free speech. Would you? The sport or game or whatever you want to call it of dog fighting is no less illegal or deplorable. If you agree with this premise, why then are people permitted to speak casually of the atrocity of breeding and fighting and rolling (I do not know what rolling is) pits that they are actually committing "underground", under the guise of free speech. This is not just an intellectual discussion. These acts are being committed by the speaker.

I respect your right to engage in the free exchange of ideas if that is how you view this, which is why I simply chose to leave. I for one cannot condone it. I cannot ignore it. I cannot look the other way.

And we don't teach others by allowing a wrongdoer to brag of his accomplishments while engaging in the illegal act. There is only social benefit when the wrongdoer speaks of his actions remorsefully, which usually only happens after he/she is imprisioned. Does this make sense to you now.

[Guest Anonymous]

Snow, this is Courtnek. and this is a free country. While the majority of us cannot approve of dogfighting in any form, we have no right to stop other people from talking about it. legally. We have no proof that the "dogmen" or the people that defend "matching and rolling" are actually doing it. Perhaps they are. But then again, maybe not. Should I turn someone in to the police who says, in a moment of anger "sometimes I'd like to kill him/her"? Murder is illegal as well, but if no crime has been committed
there is no arrest.

Also, by listening to other people's sides, there is always the hope that
we can change the way they think. This is also beneficial. Opinions
are a valuable tool, you can often sway someone from a belief if the
majority all agree. This is an open forum. As long as no one is abusive,
they are allowed to stay.

So if you want to leave, I am sorry to see it. But please dont accuse of
all of "condoning" dogfighting. We are not "looking the other way", most of us actively respond to these threads with OUR opinions on the subject.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='Snow']Condone does not mean actively support. So you have misunderstood.

Who has? Because I very clearly posted the definition of "condone" and my response to it:

condone : to pardon or overlook voluntarily; especially : to treat as if trivial, harmless, or of no importance

Yeah, because I don't see the majority of the members on this forum throwing fits and getting into multi-page discussions on how evil and disgusting the people who fight their dogs are. And I don't see people expressing their love of the APBT as a family companion and not a fighting dog. And I don't see people laughing when an article about how some "unfortunate" accident befell a dogfighter is posted. And I don't see people here writing letters when people lump all pit bulls together with the monsters created by the demons who fight dogs. And I don't hear people expressing concern about pit bulls who are confinscated from fighting rings, and offering support to people who try to rescue pit bulls. Or rescue pit bulls themselves. Suuurre... Dogo definitely thinks dogfighting is some harmless, trivial problem.

So I'm sorry, but I still do not understand how we condone dogfighting, I really don't.

We condone fighting because we allow members, nay, one member, to discuss the fact that they engage in dogfighting. Is that it? What exactly do you propose we do about that? You can be sure that when someone says that they fight dogs, members jump on that person and tell them that that kind of behavior is neither acceptable on this forum nor in real life. Is that looking the other way? Is that "accepting" it? WHAT exactly would we have to do to not be condoning dogfighting in your opinion?

We could ban that member. But would that have any affect on dogfighting? None whatsoever. So I don't see how that would solve the problem. So what will?

It's an honest question. Can you imagine how offended dog lovers like myself must be to be accused of condoning animal cruelty? So if you sincerely feel that there is something we can do that we are not already doing, then please share that information with us.

[Crested]

I must make a statement here.
I do NOT like dog fighting. ANY dog. ANY breed. I think it's absolutely disgusting and I do not understand why anyone would put their dog in such pain and misery!
Mabye why you see us "condoning" it, because there isn't much we can do. I live in Finland and I have NEVER heard of dog fighting here (thank God!!) so it's not much I can do about it. And I can't stop people from talking about it. It's their ideas and their thoughts and everyone has the right to say their thoughts out loud. That does ABSOLUTELY NOT mean that I or anyone else on this board thinks dog fighting is OK. I myself absolutely, positively HATE dog fighting!! Anyone who thinks dog fighting is ok or fights his or her dogs should be locked up with a lion to see what they think of it. The reason for that is, because that's what they do to their dogs. For show!
Why do you think that people don't fight anymore in Roman Colosseums with lions or gladiators? Because it's inhumane and SICK!
Now some bastards think dogfighting is OK for the same reasons that the ancient romans did. It was for fun! FOR ENTERTAINMENT!! Not to benefit the people - or in this case the dogs.
...and some wonder where pitts have got their bad reputation!

AAAARGH! This makes me boil!!! :evil:

I've been here for 1 year now and I KNOW for a fact that only a minority (not a majority) supports or condones dog fighting. I think it's sick, twisted and morally and ethically wrong! There isn't a word gruesom enough to discribe how I feel about dog fighting!

My main point is: THE BASTARDS THAT FIGHT THEIR DOGS SHOLD ROT IN HELL!! :evil: :evil: :evil:


...so that's how much I condone it!

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

Snow, this is Courtnek. and this is a free country. While the majority of us cannot approve of dogfighting in any form, we have no right to stop other people from talking about it. legally. We have no proof that the "dogmen" or the people that defend "matching and rolling" are actually doing it. Perhaps they are. But then again, maybe not.

What about Hmmmmmmmmm's posts where he admits to matching dogs. And that as long as you pick them up in time it is okay. Mei-mei, this, in my opinion, is casual conversation of engaging in illegal activity.

People who engage in illegal and activities forfeit the right to many freedoms. Courtnek, ask your father about the loss of civil liberties. You don't honestly think that there is a freedom of speech with regard to illegal activities, do you? In this circumstance, the first amendment is balanced against the clear and convincing danger that this poses to society and society wins.

If you all want to give people who engage in illegal and deplorable activities a platform to glamorize and justify engaging in such an atrocity, then that is your choice. And I choose not to be a part of it. But don't try to justify it by saying this is a free board. That is BS.

You banned this Pouty person because you felt she was engaging in behavior that was harmful to dogs. :o :o :o What am I missing here.

Crested, that was a wonderful job of not condoning. Seriously. :D But the question is whether it is enough.

If you all weren't just a bit uncertain as to your position, I do not think that you would be protesting so much.

I am off now to enjoy Christmas and my very normal life and you will not hear from me again. Courtnek, I wish you continued success with your beautiful dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

OOPs, that was me, Snow.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='"Anonymous"'][quote name='Anonymous']If you all weren't just a bit uncertain as to your position, I do not think that you would be protesting so much.

Fine. The next time someone accuses you of something absolutely atrocious, such as animal cruelty, racism, anything that turns your stomach, then you don't protest either.

But you know what, in a way, you're right. I don't condone dogfighting. I don't need to prove that to you or anyone else. Because I know it, and that - ultimately - is all that matters. I'm sorry you feel compelled to leave here for things beyond our control. I think that it's your loss, though, because this is the best group of animal lovers I've come across on the Net.

You banned this Pouty person because you felt she was engaging in behavior that was harmful to dogs. What am I missing here.

I do agree with this. If the grounds for getting banned from this forum include the intentional harming of animals, then I think any member stating that he or she fights his or her dogs should be banned as well. But that decision rests with our Admin.

[Horsefeathers!]

For the record, I used to be the biggest mouth here in regard to dog fighting. Hmmm and I went round and round and round about it. I compare people who fight their dogs and claim to love them to pedophiles, rapists and murderers... also people who often claim to love their victims.

Anyway, some of you who are pitching the biggest fits about condoning it were not around when some of the rest of us were the biggest, most outspoken opponents. Until this post, I have kept my opinions to myself only because, in the past, I was pm'd and asked to keep myself in check (so to speak). The whole point of this is to say that I do not support dog fighting; I am vehemently and adamantly opposed to it, but do not take my silence as condoning anything. I do not climb into bed with the enemy (meaning you will never see me engaging in idle chit chat with those I do not respect), but I do not necessarily confront them. This is not my board and I do not make the rules. All I can do is what is asked of me if I choose to remain a member here and I respect management enough, if not those I disagree with, to adhere to their rules. I choose my battles carefully and I prefer to make a difference more in the REAL world, the environment physically surrounding me where I can make a marked difference, rather than be a message board hero. Anyone can talk a good game.

Since we're just "being honest" and telling it like it is, I also don't have much use for people who make a dramatic announcement of how they're going to leave because they are on so much of a higher moral and ethical pedestal than the rest of us, yet they stick around to banter it about while others *groan* try to convince them of how wrong about us they are. If you're not happy here, just don't post again and go about your business. No drama, no hurt feelings and life goes on. I choose to stay and don't care who it p*sses off if they wish to believe we condone dog fighting only because they haven't been here long enough to see how many times many of us have had this battle. Instead of crying about it, DO something, or offer something constructive WE can do if you have anything of value to share.

Clear enough, or do I still sound a bit uncertain of my position?

[gooeydog]

Good post HF. Many of us who "condone" illegal or irresponsible actions of others do so because we have already been around, stated our sides (sometimes 4 or 5 times), and both sides have realized that the other is set in their own point of view, so in order to save bandwidth that would otherwise be wasted on unending argument on the moral, legal, etc points of whether or not to do certain things, we just agree to disagree. Just because you weren't around to read these threads does not mean they did not occur. I can understand where you wouldn't know that being a newcomer, but perhaps if you had asked before jumping to these conclusions, people would be more than happy to explain their side of things.

[DogPaddle]

Courtnek, I agree with you most of the time and respect your opinion always but I do have to disagree on this point.

While the majority of us cannot approve of dogfighting in any form, we have no right to stop other people from talking about it. legally. We have no proof that the "dogmen" or the people that defend "matching and rolling" are actually doing it. Perhaps they are. But then again, maybe not. Should I turn someone in to the police who says, in a moment of anger "sometimes I'd like to kill him/her"? Murder is illegal as well, but if no crime has been committed

If someone said "I sure would like to see if my dog could kick your dog's butt" I might not report them if I could determine if they were seriousely thinking of pursuing this action. Same as your sometimes I'd like to kill him/her statement. However, if someone said "I killed him/her" or "I fought/fight my dogs" I would turn them in in a heartbeat and let the police investigetors check it out - that is my moral (and possibly legal) duty. If I knew a dogfighters real name and real info I would report them to their local SPCA/Humane Society and local authorities, (even if the local authorities where useless good ol' boys likely to do nothing) because it is IMO the right thing to do. If the person was just running off at the mouth and not actually breaking the law than they will be found innocent and learn not to support the illegal activities by word or deed.

[courtnek]

As usual, DP, I agree with you - that's my whole point. We cant prove it.
And from my many years and experiences, I know that people say they do things that they dont, brag about things that never happened, etc. Since we dont know for a fact that this person really does match their dogs, and may just be full of hot air, the only other recourse would be to ban them, and I dont have that authority. I would prefer to try to talk them out of it, for humane reasons, and while I know I probably wont win the argument, at least my views are known and I wont back down from them. Other than that, all I could do is not respond, and I dont feel that's
right. These people need to HEAR that what they are doing (IF they are doing it) is just wrong. And yes, if I knew who the person was, and knew
where they were, I would turn them in in a heartbeat. But I dont, and cant.
So if the admin's decide to let them stay, so be it. I will still fight their views every inch of the way, and I dont feel I am conding their activities
by doing it.

Does that make sense?

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

All I have to say to Snow is:

Don't judge a whole board by a few member's posts. It's just like the "Don't judge the breed, judge the deed" quote. If you want to leave a board because a COUPLE of people are doing something YOU don't like, then think the WHOLE board thinks the same, then that's up to you! Leave if you want, we can't stop you. I just think you'll be making a mistake leaving Dogo.

Besides, I'd hate for you to leave thinking Dogo is a bad place, because it isn't.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

Mei-Mei napisał(a):

After reading the posts of HF, Mutts4me and Gooey I feel a bit embarrassed that I took the time to answer Snow's post.

LOL, why? If anyone should be embaressed, it should be me. I started the thread because I thought Snow's comment that we condoned dogfighting was an innocent mistake, not a strong belief that wasn't going to change. And I continued to respond, too, thinking I could change minds. But I can't, because it wasn't a "mistake" on their part, it was their honest opinions, no matter how unfounded we think they are.

And I agree that at some point, you have to stop arguing. I think when I first came here, I may have responded to a few posts regarding pitbulls and/or fighting, but for the most part, I've stopped that... Because I cannot continue to repeat myself to no avail. I waste my time (especially since I can't seem to write a short post ;)) and it stresses me out. So I don't make statements about dogfighting anymore. I know that there are plenty others who will, though, so I don't have to worry about it. After too many people chime in, people just end up repeating themselves anyway. Can you imagine a thread with 600+ responses condemning dogfighting everytime someone posted about it... just to prove that we don't condone it? LOL

[DogPaddle]

I would prefer to try to talk them out of it, for humane reasons, and while I know I probably wont win the argument, at least my views are known and I wont back down from them. . . . And yes, if I knew who the person was, and knew where they were, I would turn them in in a heartbeat.

Definately, agreed. I did at one point pm Snow and suggest she stay for just these reasons if she actually felt that strongly about it.