what makes someone a responsible dog owner? (long)

[kendalyn]

Actually, the law DOES mandate how children, adopted or not, are to be treated. If you adopt a child and the government doesn't like the way you raise it, they DO have the right to "repossess" them.

Yes, the law says this as it also requires certain treatment of dogs, but the adopting mother does not retain any control over the specific upbringing of her former child. Just as I don't believe you should over dogs that you adopt out (unless requested by the owner).

I don't have a problem with continued relationship or committment if that is what the owner wants obviously, but I think it's kind of crazy when potential owners are required to inform the breeders/rescuers of address changes. I mean, if someone sold their house and moved to a rented apartment, would you then repossess the dog?

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='kendalyn']

Actually, the law DOES mandate how children, adopted or not, are to be treated. If you adopt a child and the government doesn't like the way you raise it, they DO have the right to "repossess" them.

Yes, the law says this as it also requires certain treatment of dogs, but the adopting mother does not retain any control over the specific upbringing of her former child. Just as I don't believe you should over dogs that you adopt out (unless requested by the owner).

Again, it's easy enough for people to choose not to accept the terms rather than try to change them, or get upset about it. They are what I perceive to be right and it has worked for us.

[quote name='kendalyn']I don't have a problem with continued relationship or committment if that is what the owner wants obviously,

It's not about what the new owner wants, but about the welfare of the dog involved.

[quote name='kenalyn'] but I think it's kind of crazy when potential owners are required to inform the breeders/rescuers of address changes. I mean, if someone sold their house and moved to a rented apartment, would you then repossess the dog?

Possibly. A lot would depend on circumstances, but I can tell you I would require written verification (obtained in person by ME) that the property owner was aware of and ok with the dog before even considering leaving it there. If that person has one of my rescues, they agreed to my terms which include my right to remove it.

I say this again, if it's too much hassle, then one should get a dog from a source where dogs are more easily obtainable rather than have ill feelings toward people who are not in such a hurry to get rid of theirs. With the huge overpopulation problem, getting a dog is easy as can be, so IMO it's wasted energy trying to change the minds and ways of people who truly care about and are committed to the lifetime wellbeing of their puppies/fosters/rescues. :)

[kendalyn]

I do have a question about the legalities of repossessing a dog. Are you honestly allowed to remove a dog from a home based on a violation of the contract that the owners sign? I mean, how legally binding is that contract? Have you ever checked, or been forced to take it to court? I just wonder how well it would hold up...

[Horsefeathers!]

Actually, I honestly do not know. I mean, I imagine if it got REALLY ugly, the resources it could take to enforce it could definitely hamper the effort. That's another reason why I always try to err on the side of caution. I truly do not want to ever be put into that position to find out. The one dog I did repossess, I was able to convince (badger, coerce, whatever it took) her to give the dog up. If I'd had to, though, I would have taken him right out of her house (I do visit there). By being so cautious (I like to think), I've so far been able to avoid an ugly scene with anyone, but I've always believed I would try to handle it diplomatically if the situation arose. However, if need be, I would not hesitate to knock on someone's door and snatch the dog up and leave, or just pluck him out of someone's yard. I've never had to do it, but I know I would if I thought I needed to.

If you ever read the contract I signed with the rescue group I got my first Standard from, it would make your head spin. It is 4 pages long of specifics. The resue contact, from another state, keeps in touch with me and does ask for updates. One weird scenario... another girl in my state got one of the Standards from the same rescue (believed to be a littermate of mine) and broke the contract in several ways. The rescue contact was able to deem the dog repossessed (remember, she is in another state) and remanded him to my custody (the new owner did give him up) and he is now officially mine, too, but with the same 4 pages of stipulations. It was a weird situation, but last I heard, these two were actually tied up in court over the breaking of contracts. Again, our rescue is just my husband and me, so we don't have a lot of legal backing (another reason we are soooo cautious), but apparently some of these rescues can and do go after people in court if need be.

[Malamum]

Quote:
What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care


This is actually the attitude that bothers me about breeders/rescuers that adopt out dogs. Actually, the relationship does end when the dogs leave your physical care. Just because you have formed an emotional bond with the animal doesn't mean that after you have adopted it out, you should retain any kind of control. If you want to retain control, don't adopt out the dog.

At present I don't have time to comment on everything that has been discussed so far in this thread but I did want to address the above.

When discussing "responsible breeders" in the past we have all mentioned time and time again that we consider a responsible breeder someone who will take back one of their dogs at any time in the dogs life regardless of circumstances. If this is part of a breeders responsibility then I think it's only fair that they can be picky about who they choose to home their dogs with. This is why a lot of breeders will co-own any dogs they sell.

My breeders stipulations were that we had a fenced yard and that we took our dog to obediance classes for a minimum of 12 months (plus the whole not breeding from the dog, but I think that goes without saying). These are things that I would have done anyway but I don't think it is too much to ask. No - she doesn't check up on me but I consider her a friend, we keep in touch and I give her lots of updates on how our baby is going. I don't know about everyone else but I feel you can never have too many friends and somone that shares such a common interest can make a great friend. I guess if I had a personal dislike for the breeder I would go elsewhere.

If I was a breeder I would also have a list of criteria for potential owners. If I was selling to someone I already knew personally I would maybe be a little less strict if I knew they would be an excellent owner even if they didn't meet all the points. However when dealing with total strangers then that list of criteria is the only thing breeders have to go on. If they are inflexable about their conditions they may miss out on giving a dog to a good home but the chances are less likely of the dog going to a bad home.

[Autumn]

Personally, I would rather buy from a breeder with requirements than not. I know we don't like to think about it, but what if something should happen to you in an accident, and you are no longer around to care for your pet? I'm the type of person that doesn't think anyone can care for my dogs like I can, except the breeder, or in the case of a Rescue organization, the rescue. I am thrilled that the Rescue Organization requires the dogs go back to them in the anyevent where I can no longer care for them, no matter what the circumstances.

I have explicit instructions for my husband, and as a backup, my sister in case something should happen to me. I have names and phone numbers of the Rescue Organizations to call, because I would hate to think my beloved dogs would end up in a shelter and that happens many, many times when the owner dies. The next of kin doesn't want the dogs and just wants to get rid of them the fastest way possible....which is a shelter. Often times if the dogs are older, (mine are 7 and approx. 11), the shelter will just pts.

In fact, that is the way I got my older dog to begin with. I had an application in to adopt a BC. The rescue didn't have what I was looking for, but the President kept getting information from a Shelter in the next state from us saying they had a 12 yr old female BC...very sweet dog, etc. etc. that came in as a stray, but that was going to be pts. The Rescue was full and couldn't take her in, but she kept haunting the President, so she called me and asked if I wouldn't please reconsider wanting a male and a younger dog? I relented, so another volunteer went many miles to pick her up, and guess what!! She was a HE, and he was only about 6-7yrs. old, but because he has a lot of ticking, they estimated him to be much older!

He was so traumatized from being in the Shelter, I can't bear the thought of him ever having to go back to one!

[Black GSD]

Autumn napisał(a):

Well said, KP and Kendalyn. Had to laugh at your last sentence Kendalyn, because while I expect my dogs to behave around guests, if someone else's dog is a *holy terror* around me, I just laugh weakly and say, "oh, that's o.k"..while inside I am seething!! :lol:

I say "it's ok". If it is a small dog or puppy (And I reallty mean it is OK.). If it is a big obnoxious dog, I knee it in the chest!

However if the owner is trying to teach the dog not to jump on people, I do not encourage the dog or pet it when it is jumping on me.

One of the Sheffifs Deputys that lives in town has a HUGE Rott. (He is over 100lbs. Not only is he a BIG dog, he is also FAT.)
He is a VERY friendly dog. EVERY TIME I am over there the dog jumps on me. I knee him everytime. And the owner has NEVER said anything. Heck, it works a lot better than they saying "NO". Since he doesn't listen to them anyway.

I also know someone that has a HUGE Mastiff. He is the same way. He jumps on EVERYONE including the owners. But he doesn't jump on me anymore!

[KP]

I have done that too black with opposite reaction from the owner. They actually yelled at me for kneeing their dog in the chest or even pushing them off me! WTF! That gets under my skin sooooo bad. Especially when their dogs come in with wet and dirty paws or something and jump on me first thing. I had one person have her dog wrap his legs around my leg and pee on my ankle and I wasn't allowed to pull him off! How are these people allowed to have pets! It just amazes me.

[JudyHoffman]

I had one person have her dog wrap his legs around my leg and pee on my ankle and I wasn't allowed to pull him off! How are these people allowed to have pets! It just amazes me.

How? Because, the person who placed this dog did not care how the dog was taught or if it was taught manners at all. It happens all the time unfortunately. The dog maybe was not followed up on ......

Just to start another discussion, I ask all of my buyers to have the dogs hips & elbows xrayed at 2 - 2 1/2 years of age and to have their eyes CERF'd also and submit the evaluations to the OFA and CERF. Yes, I even ask this if the dog is spayed or neutered. My reason?

This is MY breeding program ........ I want to know if I have created any unknown health issues. I MAY want to breed these two animals again once their offspring are evaluated for the usual hips/elbows and eye problems. I may want to use a similar pedigree to continue the my breeding program with a particular line of Belgians.

I tell all of the potential buyers that these tests are costly ...... Hips/Elbows can run over $325.00 (including OFA costs), CERF can run up to $80.00 then the cost to register the test.

I think the poster who said something like it's my dog and they have no say in what happens is mistaken, from a breeders point of view. They have a lot at stake and if a puppy from a breeder develops problems they will be the first ones to be flamed as lousy breeders and how much they have hurt the breed. It's a double edged sword and I prefer to take the heat from potential puppy buyers than the AKC, my Breed Club and my other Breeder friends and mentors.

[kendalyn]

I think the poster who said something like it's my dog and they have no say in what happens is mistaken, from a breeders point of view

This was from a raising/training the puppy point of view, not genetic defects. I can see why you would be interested to know those things. My point is that if someone does not want the breeder/rescuer involved in how they are bringing up the dog, I don't think they should have to. What is your health guarantee policy? If someone has those tests done and they come out positive, do you bear any of the responsibility?

[JudyHoffman]

My health guarantee is 36 months, which is longer than most contracts and actually I would guarantee health even longer.

Do I bear any of the responsibility in what way? Do you mean do I replace the dog? Do I take the dog back and refund the cost of the dog? I'm not sure how you are referring to responsibility.

But for clarification, I only refund money in the case of aggressiveness or temperment faults and then only if it is verified by two certified behaviorists and a veterinarian. I also have the puppies eyes CERF'd at 10 weeks old to see if there are any genetic faults at a young age. They go thru range of motion tests at 6 weeks, 8 weeks and again at 10 weeks old to get an idea if there are any joint problems or potential joint problems. As a breeder that is really all I can do to make sure I am selling a healthy puppy to someone.

[Black GSD]

Judy,

AS far as giving a refund in the case of aggressiveness. Do you do this to get the dog away from the people and hopefully be able to give it a better life? As we know, aggressiveness can be caused rather than genetic. If it is caused by the treatment of the owner, in reality you are NOT responsible. (Though I can see how you would feel that way since you sold them the puppy in the first place believing that the puppy was going to be treated properly.) BUT, I can totally see taking the pup/dog back and giving them their money back rather than giving them aonther pup to ruin.
(Since the DOG is the most important thing.

[kendalyn]

I meant what does the health guarantee cover? I mean, you can't be expected to predict certain diseases (not genetic) that may occur before 36 months...

[KP]

If that is what people agree to then by contract they are bound to that agreement.

If it were me I can understand you wanting to know for betterment of the breed (which I highly respect) as far as how these puppies grow and defects. I understand wanting the tests done for this but on the same token on the owners side, I also feel that if you are insisting these things have to be done they should be done on your own dime if its for your own piece of mind and your personal breeding practice since more likely than not these people wouldn't have these tests performed for their own personal satisfaction.

If these are things you (who technically doesn't own the dog) are insisting upon then I feel the owner should have a decision whether they want to have these tests done or not and it shouldn't be forced upon them to have the tests performed since they are the ones who have to pay for it....

but...if they agreed to have these tests done and pay for them themselves, by contract then well... thats your right. You more than likely haven't had a problem with that ever before though have you? Usually people who go out of their way to purchase a dog, finding a reputable breeder and spending the big bucks for one with good papers and guarantees are going to be the type of people who would like to know whether these dogs are the quality for which they spent.

These types of things such as tests are only obligational if they are listed in the contract....and I'm sure they are.

Most contracts are legal and binding. I would think this is very much legal as long as they agreed to it.

Not attacking you or your practice in any of this Judy...just stating my opinion on some of it :wink: :D

[JudyHoffman]

Sorry I did not get back yesterday, I was quite busy with Christmas and the approaching holidays :(

I speak to potential puppy buyers several times before I agree to sell them a puppy. I speak a lot about the tests I would like done and I encourage them to speak to their vet about them and do research about the tests and why they are done blah, blah, blah. I also tell them that I cannot force them to do the tests but as potential members of my extended family I would like the pups to be tested. Since this is my first litter, I have no way of knowing if people will or will not do the tests, but I certainly hope so. I believe that 6 of the 7 puppies I sold will have the tests done within the specified time frame.

What I do with my sold puppies is when the puppies are spayed, I refund $50.00 of the cost of the spay/neuter with proof of the procedure. For the tests to be done, I will refund $100.00 for the hips and $30 for the eye CERF with proof that it has been done. There is nothing more I can do monetarily. I also reimburse the cost of obedience class with proof of completion and certificate and if those owners go on to get their CGC, I reimburse another $50.00. I will also reimburse the cost of agility classes/tracking classes/ herding lessons etc up to the point that the owners get their full payment price back. This is all incentive for people to work with their dogs, to enjoy their dogs and bond with their dogs and develop a trust/friendship with their dog.

You see, I make no money, even tho I am asking for people to do a lot with their puppy as far as training and health clearances, they also get more than 1/2 of what they originally paid for the pup in the first place.

Aggressiveness/Temperment issues have to be verified by a 2 Certified Canine Behaviorists and my vet. This includes testing for any missed health issues. No money is refunded unless everyone agrees, including myself. The buyers are all aware of this.

For Health issues, such as cancer, thyroid problems and any number of problems, the buyers must return the dog to me (if that is what they want to do because of the burden of caring for an ill dog) without any refund. This also must be verified and validated by their vet and my own. (My vet examination is at my cost, not the owners). The dog will then be in my care for the rest of it's life unless of course I can re-home the dog with someone who has full knowledge of the dogs health issues.

All puppies leave my house to go to their forever homes with a new flat collar, a new bowl, a new leash, a 10 lb bag of premium dog food, raw bones, 2 toys and a 2 lb bag of treats and water from home. All pupppies with a puppy packet explaining about the Belgian breed and anesthesia, training techniques, crate training, pedigree papers, phone #'s, health certificates of both sire, dam and puppy and lots of other good reading material. I try to find them a good positive trainer in their area and supply them with a phone # and email address. I will also contact that trainer.

Basically new owners just have to put the dog in the car, load their stuff and off they go. I ask them all to just stay home and bond with their dog for 2 weeks, not to overstimulate the dog and build a bond of trust.

So far I've been lucky. I want my buyers happy and my puppies happy. I owe it to them, to their dam, to their sire & owners and to myself. I need to be able to live with myself knowing that my puppies are well taken care of to the best of my ability.

[KP]

sounds good to me :D

[JudyHoffman]

I thought I was being pretty fair, considering what I am asking for in return from the owners.

Believe me, I don't hound these folks once a day ...... every now and then I'll send them an email and ask how they are doing and how the pups are doing. They know I am available to them at any time day or night!

I'll probably check on big days, like 6 month Birthdays, 1 year birthdays and the like. Believe me, the dogs they bought from me are theirs in every way shape and form :D .

[courtnek]

I do home checks of all of my "potential" homes. If there is not some sort of confinement system or a fenced yard, I will not sell a dog to that person. I have lost far too many dogs due to poor fencing and lack of fencing is just an accident waiting to happen.

When I adopted my Foxhound, a fenced yard was required. Some dogs do not respond well to recall, hunting dogs specifically, because no matter how well recall trained they are their noses will take them astray. My yard is 80x60, and fenced with a 6-ft fence on all sides.
They get regular walks as well, but they both run rampant around the yard and chase the ever-present squirrels and have a great time. Better a fenced yard that they can run free in then to be tied up or chained. I work full time, and dont have the time in the morning to walk
them properly, so they have the yard to run in for a 1/2 hour before I go to work. They get let out to run at lunch, and also at dinner, and them they get leash walked after that around the neighborhood. Will I let them run loose? Never. There is too good of a chance of being hit by a car.

I agree that some people abuse fencing, never interacting with the dog and I feel that's wrong.