what makes someone a responsible dog owner? (long)

[kendalyn]

This is something I have always wondered about:

Obviously it is a good thing when breeders are selective about who they sell their puppies to. They want to make sure they are going to responsible owners. But what constitutes a responsible owner?

Sometimes I wonder if some breeders would consider me to be an undesireable owner of one of their dogs. If I do things differently from them, does that make me irresponsible or someone they would not sell a puppy to?

Some breeders or rescue organizations require a fenced in yard. I don't have a fenced in yard and Buck is off leash when he is in the yard. He is trained to stay there and I do not live on a busy road, but I'm sure that some people may consider this not a good situation. The main reason I don't have a fenced in yard is because Buck knows to go potty only in the weedy meadow behind the house and I cannot fence that in (don't have to pooper scoop there)

I also don't feed Buck a raw diet or any other kind of "special" food. He gets a good, reputable brand of dog food and that is it other than treats. Some breeders may not like this as they feed their dogs alternative diets. Should I be required to do the same?

Buck knows most basic obedience and I am constantly teaching him new tricks but he does not know how to heel. It is not really something I am intersted in teaching him. He knows not to pull on the leash, but when we go for a walk he is constantly changing sides, stopping to sniff and is generally out at the end of the leash. This doesn't bother me. As long as my arm doesn't feel like it has been pulled out of its socket at the end of the walk, I'm happy. But I have had people tell me that he should be taught to heel as it is just good manners. I think that as long as he isn't bothering anybody, than it is my decision. So if a breeder knew that I would probably never teach the dog to heel, would that make me irresponsible in their eyes?

Basically, I wonder what makes someone a responsible dog owner. It is easy to pick out the REALLY bad ones. These are the people who do not immunize their dog, do not socialize them at all, do not spay or neuter and breed irresponisbly, etc... We can all spot them. But what about that grey area? I feel that I am a responsible dog owner, but there might be some out there that do not (it's ok, I have thick skin).

So what do you guys think?

[/i]

[Autumn]

You raise a lot of points here to answer. :)
I will try to be as brief as possible and still make some sense, but I may not touch on all points.

As to whether a breeder has the *right* to be selective on who their puppies/dogs go to and ask the new owner to feed the way they do, etc.

Yes. Most definately. Not all breeder's ask you to feed a raw diet (I personally feed my dogs a raw diet, but don't expect everyone else to agree with me.) But: If I wanted a puppy from a certain breeder who feeds raw, and requires new owner's follow their feeding program, and I know their puppies are the best I can afford, I would agree to feed raw. If I didn't want to feed raw, I would find a breeder that didn't require it.
Of course, you also have the option of still getting a puppy from that breeder and not doing what they require. How would they know unless they are a personal friend of yours. However, is this ethical/honest on your part? If you want to buy a puppy from an ethical/honest breeder, than you should be no less.

All that aside, what constitutes a responsible dog owner?

In our state all that is required by law is, *food, water, shelter*. Dogs can survive with these three things alone, but is that being a responsible dog owner? Not to me. You also have to exercise, and train your dog, and give them plenty of love.

No, you don't need a fenced yard to exercise your dog. Some of the most abused and under exercised dogs live in fenced in yards. I know. I now own one of them, and until we put in our underground fence, I did not have a fenced yard. I am thankful the Aussie rescue did not require a fenced yard, but being a responsible dog owner means giving your dog daily exercise in all climates.

Being a responsible dog owner means training your dog in at least basic obedience so he can be controlled under all circumstances. I love dogs, but I hate going to friends/relatives homes and have their dogs jumping all over me and in my face when I sit down! I once had a friends dog jump on the back of the couch where I was sitting and proceed to grab my hair and try to pull it out of my head!

Being a responsible dog owner means providing the best health care possible for your friend, which also includes grooming. My long haired dog was so matted from neglect when she came into rescue, they had to practically shave her! Her nails were so long they were like claws, and I still have a problem getting them back as short as they should be!

One last thought:

Being a responsible dog owner means loving your dog enough to know when it's time to let him go because of illness or aggression.

It is very selfish to keep your beloved friend with you if he is in pain daily and there is nothing that can be done for him.

It is also very irresponsible to keep an aggressive dog that is a menace to society because you "love him too much to put him down". You cannot be a responsible dog owner and not step up to the plate to protect your neighbors from your dog. If you have tried everything within your power to rehabilitate said dog, and he is still a threat to other dogs and/or people, it's time to act responsibly and do the right thing by him and other's. We also have a responsibility to our fellow man.

[KP]

I agree with Autumn. I was glad to see that she said to try everything in your power to rehabilitate an aggressive dog as an option. So many people put their aggressive dogs down without even trying to do anything. I really think that everything possible should be done before you take the last step in euthanizing a dog.

I feel that a responsible owner should follow any stipulation that the breeders give in allowing someone to purchase their dog...

However I do feel that it is rediculous for a breeder to make stipulations to a degree such as the type of food the dog must eat throughout its life span. If they want to go that far in the decision making then I feel they should just raise all the puppies they breed themselves but if you agree to that then I feel you should abide by it.

Its understandable for the yard and whether it becomes an indoors dog or out doors. I can see where they should have a right to decide those things as far as saftey and to a degree the quality of life but I think there is a line you have to draw somewhere in the upbrining. I think even the decision to spay or neuter crosses that line. I feel that should be the "owners" decision.

I also feel as an owner that EVERY dog should be trained in basic obedience and should have manners. Nothing ticks me off more than an untrained dog. I've also been in the situation where my best friend had a basset and when I'd come in the door the thing would take a running leap into my stomach. I'd come in the house having to block him from doing this every single time. He would continually do it for about 10 minutes. This dog used to tick me off so bad.

If I sat down he'd get up on the couch and chew on my hair and I'd have to keep pusihing him off me. My friend would get mad if I didn't let him just do it. She thought *I* was mean and he was only doing what made him happy...which "he should be able to do". We had many arguements about this. He would get in my purse and take things. Run around with my keys and if I took them away she'd get ticked. People like that should never have a dog.

I lived with a guy who used to let his untrained dog run offleash. I used to get SOOO mad because he wouldn't let me train him. He thought he should be free to make his own decisions and do what makes him happy. I asked how he would feel about that if he took off for the busy highway about 200 yards away and got hit and killed. He said, "well at least he'll die happy." Then of course he never could understand why his dog never bonded to him :roll:

I still think there should be testing and licensing to enable people to own a dog. If you don't pass the test you can't have a dog. Not just anyone should be able to have one.

[kendalyn]

I thought about this a lot today. I went to visit a relative who found a dog a few months ago. It's a purebred Boxer who did have tags. She contacted the owners who told her that they no longer wanted the dog and that if she did, she could come by and get the papers and the dog would be hers. So she did just that.

The dog is very sweet and actually fairly calm for a boxer. However, the dog has absolutely no training at all. I have the feeling they have no idea how to train this dog in basic manners. I was able to teach the dog an OK sit, and found her fairly easy to train. However, I know this will not be continued. I also want to say that I was around the dog for only about 3 hours, and the dog would come to me better than anyone else in the house. (BTW, this really ticks off the owners) When I saw this it really hit home how important training is. I don't think they will get the point though.

So is my aunt a good dog owner? I commend her for taking this dog in, getting it spayed and up to date on shots and giving her a loving home. Misty (the dog) seems very happy and well socialized with people.

I guess my final answer would be that this is the way a lot of dog owners are and it's not the worst but it is certainly not the best. I really could not believe how bonded Misty was to me after only that short session of training though. It was really cool.

[KP]

I think if you are going to be willing to own a dog you should make sure that it becomes a comfortable experience for everyone in the house (including company). If the dogs manners are so rude and rediculous that it intrudes on company or anyone else in the houses space without permission and comfort level being there, then I think you owe it to everyone to get the help you need to train the dog if you can't do it yourself. If you are going to take on the responsiblity of having a dog you should be responsible enough to at least teach it manners.

I am absolutely nutso about dogs. I loooove dogs, I love to play with and hug dogs but I feel every dog should have manners. I don't care about excuses. If you have a dog I just feel that is a responsiblity that comes with having one. If you can't handle the responsiblity of that then I don't feel you should have one.

Either that or crate it or close it off in another room where other people never have to be bothered by it.

I see so many people complain about their dogs manners all the time but they aren't willing to do anything about it. I just say, "so, did you learn to read all by yourself then?"

[Horsefeathers!]

KP napisał(a):

Either that or crate it or close it off in another room where other people never have to be bothered by it.

I feel a little differently. I feel that my dogs' comfort and happiness comes before that of anyone wishing to visit. If my dogs annoy people, my door swings both ways. It is my dogs' home as well as mine and I refuse to "punish" them for being dogs. Their manners are great individually, but having 10 in the house... well, sometimes they get a bit carried away :oops: . I can control them and call them down, but I still refuse to effectively punish them for being dogs. Then again, I don't have much company. :P

Seriously, I do feel a little differently than a lot of people. I enjoy my dogs' company because they are, well, dogs and not children (which I don't have *shudder*). Each dog is taught basic obedience and manners, but they are still all individuals with their own personalities and I can appreciate that. I mean, they're not running loose, terrorizing the neighborhood and I don't let them just outright overwhelm anyone (jumping and lunging and all that, but that's not acceptable even where there are NO guests), but I really can't stand people who show up at my house acting disgusted and annoyed that there are (so many) dogs there. They are dogs. They are going to bark to announce your arrival, they are going to greet you at the door and they are going to run in circles until the initial greetings are over and then they'll go somewhere and lie down. The least my guests can do is acknowledge them and say hello, too. I reckon it's that attitude that makes me a lot more concerned with my dogs' comfort and happiness during visits than with guests'. The guests have their own homes to go to. My dogs live here. :)

I have no idea what any of that had to do with whether or not I'm a responsible dog owner. Probably not by many folks' standards. :-?

[KP]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!'] I don't let them just outright overwhelm anyone (jumping and lunging and all that, but that's not acceptable even where there are NO guests)

This is what I'm getting at. If you can control your dogs from doing this and not just that but you do control them from doing that then I think its fine to let them stay out. Its the people who feel their guest should put up with their dogs lunging and jumping at them, taking their things and being outright rude all together that I feel is wrong for any person to expect from their guest.

Hands down, If you can't control your dog you bet your butt I'm not going to come into your home. You should at least be correcting them for it. I expect my space to be respected when I go anywhere. I don't feel that just because I visit someone elses home that my rights to have respected space should get thrown out the window upon walking in their home or on their property. I wouldn't expect it from a man and I don't expect it from dogs or their owners.

Now don't take it out of context either :) Like I said I looooove dogs. And, I even more so love well mannered dogs. First of all its not exactly the dogs that gets to me (so much, because they don't know better) its the owners that feel their dogs have a right to be rude to me in their house that really get under my skin. Its the people who are offended if I defend myself against their dog lunging and jumping inapproprately or being so extremely rude to me no matter how nice I am about it...even if I just block the dog, they get offended. Why?! I know a lot of people like this and it reeeeally bothers me.

I don't expect eveyone to stick their dogs in another room just because they are dogs but if they can't be controlled then I think its only fair to the guest. I don't feel its mean or "punishing" a dog to stick them in another room before you allow someone to come in the home so that it/they don't stampeed the guest if thats in all probabilty going to happen. I think its respecting your guest. Not everyone who visits a home is going to know that home has rude dogs and yes, rude obnoxious dogs would keep me from visiting someones house no matter how much I love dogs.

Just because someone has a child they don't wish to teach it manners doesn't mean I'm going to come to their house and allow it to hit and kick on me, say nasty things and do whatever while the parent just stands there and smiles adoringly. Its the same thing. Then again people with obnoxious dogs a lot of times have obnoxious kids. :-?

[kendalyn]

Its the people who are offended if I defend myself against their dog lunging and jumping inapproprately or being so extremely rude to me no matter how nice I am about it...even if I just block the dog, they get offended

I usually have the opposite problem. When Buck was learning manners about jumping, people would come over and tell me it was ok for Buck to jump on them. I mean, they're just trying to be polite, but I would have to stop and say something like, "no, he's learning to be a polite dog."

I have to say though that when other people's dogs jump on me I instinctivly say it's ok :oops:

[Autumn]

Well said, KP and Kendalyn. Had to laugh at your last sentence Kendalyn, because while I expect my dogs to behave around guests, if someone else's dog is a *holy terror* around me, I just laugh weakly and say, "oh, that's o.k"..while inside I am seething!! :lol:

[Horsefeathers!]

KP, now you see why I don't have much company. I like it that way. :)

I reckon the thing that really soured me is that my (ugh) sister in law showed up unexpectedly once (first no-no... I HATE unexpected, UNINVITED guests... she could have at least called first). Of course, my dogs (and cats) met her at the door, going berserk (all of them were pretty young at the time and still learning manners). This chick hopped up onto my brand freaking new furniture and went to doing the "ohmygawd make 'em go away, ew ew ew, shrieeeeeeeeeeek, I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would have so many animals!!!" dance. It p*ssed me off to the point that I changed my priorities and perspective. I just respect this now as my dogs' home and anyone else can kiss my posterior. If their space is that precious to them, they need to seek refuge elsewhere. :P

To be honest, I'm kinda serious, but not as bad as I sound. I just hate rude, obnoxious, UNINVITED guests who waltz into my house and treat me as if I should be washing their feet at the door and breaking bread with them. I've pretty much weeded these folks out. Really, my only fairly regular guest now is someone who is just as happy to let all 10 dogs pile up on her (seriously... me- "here, let me put some of these guys in my bedroom..." her- "nooooo, don't you dare! They're glad to see me and I'm always glad to see them!"). Since she respects this as their home and acknowledges them, they greet her and then go lie down. Gawd, I love her.

Then again, I'm not much of a people person. :oops:

Just for the record, in public, where I do ALWAYS have 4 of the 10 with me (yes, in stores, offices, almost anywhere), the rules are different. Then THEY are in OTHERS' space and expected to behave so.

[JudyHoffman]

Since I consider myself a breeder of Belgian Sheepdogs I will answer your question.

No, I would not consider you a good home for one of my puppies.

Obedience School is a must and as a breeder I ask for proof that an owner went to obedience school. I am not "anal" about diet, but I do ask that a premium (more expensive) kibble be fed to the dog for their overall health.

I do home checks of all of my "potential" homes. If there is not some sort of confinement system or a fenced yard, I will not sell a dog to that person. I have lost far too many dogs due to poor fencing and lack of fencing is just an accident waiting to happen.

I check vet references and other personal references and if possible meet those people also.

You have to remember, if you go to a breeder you are wanting their expertise with their breed of choice. No one knows the breed better than the breeder. The breeder knows what is best for their particular breed.

Not jumping and manners will be taught in obedience class.

When I still had 4 pups at 9 weeks of age, I paid and enrolled all 4 puppies in obedience class/puppy kindergarten/ puppy manners class, at an astronomical cost to me. I expect my owners to do the same with just one dog.

Not going to obedience class, not giving the dog an outlet to use their brains, not establishing strong leadership thru training only causes problems down the road.

[kendalyn]

Not going to obedience class, not giving the dog an outlet to use their brains, not establishing strong leadership thru training only causes problems down the road

I agree that dogs need to be able to think and go through training but I don't believe that obedience class is the only way to do this. I have been to an obediance class before and it was a terrible experience. Granted, there are good ones and bad ones and maybe this was a bad one. I really don't know.

Mainly I think my problem with obedience class is that I know enough about training to do it myself. I know my dog better than the trainers who are also trying to work with at least 3 or 4 other people at the same time. Unless I had a dog that I could not train on my own I probably would never go to another obedience class again. I enjoy doing it myself.

[JudyHoffman]

Mainly I think my problem with obedience class is that I know enough about training to do it myself. I know my dog better than the trainers who are also trying to work with at least 3 or 4 other people at the same time. Unless I had a dog that I could not train on my own I probably would never go to another obedience class again. I enjoy doing it myself.

I have owned and trained dogs for 15 years now. Just recently started breeding. With every new dog comes a new set of problems and I still go to obedience school with each new dog.

I "think" I also know how to train a dog, but I find it is not true. Even the best dog owners and dog trainers will go to other "trainers" for help/training.

Puppy Kindergarten helps dogs socialize with other humans/dogs. Puppy handling gets them used to being handled approached by strangers. Puppy manners teaches them not to jump,nip, lick etc.

No one knows everything, even if you've been in the breed for a gazillion years. Each dog is different and it's interaction with people / dogs is different.

To each his own and this is not a criticism, but if you wanted to buy a dog from my (as a breeder) and told me all of this stuff, I would not sell you a dog. There are too many warning flags about you that would make me uneasy about selling you a dog.

This is not to say that you are not an excellent person or dog owner, but from a breeders point of view I would turn you away.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='kendalyn']

Not going to obedience class, not giving the dog an outlet to use their brains, not establishing strong leadership thru training only causes problems down the road

I agree that dogs need to be able to think and go through training but I don't believe that obedience class is the only way to do this. I have been to an obediance class before and it was a terrible experience. Granted, there are good ones and bad ones and maybe this was a bad one. I really don't know.



I really have to agree here. Obedience classes and obedience training are not necessarily the same thing. I took one of my dogs through, of all things, a therapy dog training program (Delta Society) and it was the most horrific experience for him and me both. He was a rescue Lab and did great, but his "weakness" was pulling on leash. The "trainer" put a prong on him (not getting into the whole prong, to use or not to use debate), but my problem with it was that she was absolutely brutal. She would yank him off his feet or to the ground with it. In that one session, he went from a jolly, happy go lucky dog to a quivering, tail tucked, nervous wreck. I discontinued allowing that form of training (he ended up doing great, by the way... aced all tests and "recovered" nicely from his experience). Any one of my dogs could easily pass the CGC test and they were all trained at home. Socialization is achieved through taking them everywhere, work, errands, parks, social gatherings, when they are young, or first homed here (I actually primarily rescue adults... very few puppies). Since there is really no way to always be assured of what is and isn't a good obedience class, it's kind of moot, IMO, to mandate it UNLESS you have a particular trainer or program that is advocated which seems kind of hard to do for (other) people who ship their puppies hundreds or even thousands of miles away.

Any way a breeder like you would sell to someone who has achieved CGC or therapy dog success through their own means without going through formal channels if all other required criteria were met?

[Horsefeathers!]

By the same token, I have to admit I'm not a breeder, but from a rescue standpoint, I've never placed one of my dogs in a home without an upright fence, or to outside only homes. Not that I don't think every owner without a fence is irresponsible, it just gives me a bit more assurance that IF and WHEN errors of judgment are made (as everyone will do... none of us are perfect), at least there's some containment. In other words, it just makes me feel better.

[JudyHoffman]

Horsefeathers, I'm sorry you had such an awful experience with the Delta Society training. I went thru several courses with the Delta Society and I had never seen where they actually ran training classes. I know they conducted the CGC and Therapy dog tests, but not actual classes.

If that were me, I would not have even finished the class for the evening, let alone a several week class if any trainer treated my dog that way. I'm sorry you had to go thru that.

Once I agree to sell a dog to someone, I personally find them a class in their area. I have contacts in many parts of the country who can recommend classes and often times I know breeders that run classes themselves.

I go out of my way to find obedience classes and of course just going to classes will not train the dog. It is something that needs to be worked on for the life of the dog every single day.

You say it well Horsefeathers, it all comes down to "assurances". This is what I owe my puppies and my bitch ....... to give them great homes and prevent them to winding up in a shelter without my knowledge.

[JudyHoffman]

What can I say? It's a gut feeling.

A quick story, I sold a puppy to a couple. This would have been their 4th Belgian. I knew they didn't have a fence, I knew they could do obedience etc. I let it go and sold the pup.

They took the puppy home at 8 weeks, they totally stressed this dog for 2 days, they shoved him in a crate, the shoved his nose in accidents, changed his diet, bought him to a nursing home to visit old folks, traipsed him all over town and by day 3 they returned him to me for being "aggressive" and showing "no bite inhibition". The poor fella was totally stressed. Now I had the problem of assessing his behavior to make sure that in fact he was not aggressive. They totally screwed up this little puppy who was outgoing and friendly when he left. It took me 3 months to somewhat fix his issues.

Never ever again will I for go my rules of owning one of my puppies. I am thankful that this pup was returned to me so quickly, but can you imagine if they had waited 6 months and then returned him to me?

This was a lesson well learned and I am happy to report that this pup is now placed in a home in Canada, with a Belgian Tervuren sister and is doing quite well. The new owners are going to take him to obedience classes and possibly start him in agility. They were also aware of his issues and are continuing the work I painstakingly started to help him overcome his very bad experience.

[kendalyn]

Obviously they are your puppies and you can sell them to whomever you want. I completely understand wanting to be choosy. Personally this is one of the reasons I would probably never go to a breeder to get a dog (not the only reason). I just don't react well to people making me do something their way when my way works well also.

When you sell someone a puppy you really don't know what will ultimately become of that puppy and I'm sure it is scary because you have bonded with these dogs. Hopefully the people will follow the contract, but I'm sure at least some do not. That isn't to say however that they aren't in great homes and being well taken care of.

A breeders rules help them weed out the irresponsible owners. I have no problem with that as long as the breeders admit that there are ways of owning a dog that differ from theirs, but are still good.

[JudyHoffman]

I hope the next time I breed I'm not so anal retentive :wink:

[Autumn]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']By the same token, I have to admit I'm not a breeder, but from a rescue standpoint, I've never placed one of my dogs in a home without an upright fence, or to outside only homes.

I have never bred dogs either, but I have owned dogs all my life and have fostered for three breed rescues and I never have had an upright fence. If it had been a "requirement" from the breeder's I bought puppies from, or from the Rescue's I fostered for and adopted dogs from, I never would have been able to own and or foster a lot of dogs!!

Something else I did with my adopted rescue dogs and with the dogs I fostered, that might make a lot of people feel I am an irresponsible dog owner, but I did it with the full knowledge of the Rescue origanizations.

I bring the dogs home, and take them around the yard/house on leash. Then I take them, on leash, in back of our house where there is acres of fields/woods/ponds etc. I walk them, on leash, about 1/4 mile from the house and turn them loose! I have my Retriever whistle with me, and immediately train them to the whistle while they are still unsure of their surroundings. I carried treats with me, and would give them a treat when they came to my whistle/call. I have never had a dog run off from me or refuse to come to the whistle, and mind you...these dogs did not know what a whistle was when I got them, and most hardly knew their name! That's why I began to use the whistle! A dog will most times respond to a whistle when they won't respond to your calls.

Every day the foster dogs were with me they got to run with my dogs and swim in the ponds, and they were some happy, grateful dogs!

[kendalyn]

I also have never had a fence. I could be off the mark here, but I've always thought it makes the dog more calm about being loose. My aunt and neighbors have fences. If one of those dogs gets out of the fence, you can forget about it coming to your call, you have to go get it. However, inside the fence, the dog's recall is good. I think they just get really excited or disoriented and run because they aren't used to being unconfined.

I can trust Buck off leash almost anywhere. He knows not to run in the road and he comes very well when I call or whistle. It's almost like he knows that I trust him...

[Horsefeathers!]

I just realized something. I lied and didn't mean to. The first time I adopted out Devin, my foster Lhasa Apso, he did go to a home without a fence. He's the ONLY dog I adopted out to someone without a fence. I went against my own "rules" and did it, anyway, because it was otherwise a perfect home. Guess what happened? Doodoohead Devin escaped the guy's house by a means no one could have imagined. It was totally not the guy's fault and I didn't hold him responsible for Devin's escape since it was one of those weird things that no one could have imagined. However, the guy didn't have a fence and Devin was missing for two days before being reported found. Had there been a fence, Devin would have still escaped from the house, but at least the fence might have contained him and I wouldn't have had to spend two days agonizing over his whereabouts and condition.

Again, to each's own. I never said for one minute that a fence is a requirement for someone to be a responsible owner. There are plenty of people who make it work without one. For years, we didn't have one and we also did the thing of walking several dogs at a time outside, all times of the day and night and in any kind of weather. However, I think people who do this are more the exception than the rule and even though someone could be well intentioned and agree to do it, I feel better knowing a fence is in place. All the screening in the world of potential adopters is no guarantee that they'll abide by any agreements or contracts set forth. That's exactly why I feel better to know that the dog is physically contained. It's not fool proof, either, but it makes me feel better. I don't plan on placing any more of my rescues with anyone without a fence. I don't like to say "never" in regard to what I will and won't do, but so far I haven't met anyone else I would make an exception for. I also don't adopt out to renters which has been another source of ill feelings for some. Each person, be it breeder or rescue worker, has to use their own judgment to do what they feel is best for animals they've made a lifetime commitment to. If it p*sses off a few people, it's all a part of the "job." There are no absolutes in breeding/rescue placement and all we can do is what we can do to be assured our babies have the best chance possible to live a long and healthy life in their new homes. If it means some potentially great people miss out on one of them, it's just one of the evils involved. What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care.

[Horsefeathers!]

kendalyn napisał(a):

I also have never had a fence. I could be off the mark here, but I've always thought it makes the dog more calm about being loose. My aunt and neighbors have fences. If one of those dogs gets out of the fence, you can forget about it coming to your call, you have to go get it. However, inside the fence, the dog's recall is good. I think they just get really excited or disoriented and run because they aren't used to being unconfined.

I can trust Buck off leash almost anywhere. He knows not to run in the road and he comes very well when I call or whistle. It's almost like he knows that I trust him...

I don't know... only my back yard is fenced. The front is open. I can let almost any of them into the front yard and they'll come back. They don't run. The only exception is my Schnauzer who will bolt the minute he gets a chance. Perfect recall in the fence, sucks outside it. However, he was picked up a few years ago wandering on the side of the road, so un-instilling this behavior has been difficult. The other nine dogs, however, do not bolt when out of the fence. Our fence has been more of a luxury in the sense that we no longer HAVE to walk them. They are able to spend more time outside and get more exercise rather than just walked out to do their business and back inside. Since we have 10, luxurious strolls individually are not something we have the option of doing too often. Their one-on-one time is primarily inside in that they share our furniture, kitchen, bed and whatever. It's a trade-off, I suppose, but it's what works for us. I wouldn't expect it to work for everyone.

All that to say that I don't necessarily believe that a fence automatically makes a dog suck at recall. I feel that a responsible owner would take time with their dogs to teach them how to behave outside the fence, as well as outside the house. A fence should not be used as a crutch to keep from socializing or training dogs. Nine out of the ten of my dogs have perfect recall ANYWHERE, fence or not.

[kendalyn]

What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care

This is actually the attitude that bothers me about breeders/rescuers that adopt out dogs. Actually, the relationship does end when the dogs leave your physical care. Just because you have formed an emotional bond with the animal doesn't mean that after you have adopted it out, you should retain any kind of control. If you want to retain control, don't adopt out the dog.

It's like someone giving up a kid for adoption but mandating throughout the kid's life what he/she is allowed to do and how the parents should treat the child. Or perhaps someone selling a car and continuously checking to see if it is getting all the scheduled oil changes.

I really think that once the dog is released to the new owners, they should be able to decide everything that happens to the dog. It is after all their dog. If they want to keep in touch with you, that should be their decision. I think it's very strange that this is sometimes written into adoption contracts.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='kendalyn']

What a lot of people fail to realize is that WE also make a lifetime commitment to these dogs. It doesn't end when they leave our physical care

This is actually the attitude that bothers me about breeders/rescuers that adopt out dogs. Actually, the relationship does end when the dogs leave your physical care.

The relationship may end, but not the commitment. If I weren't committed, I wouldn't give a crap who gets my dog or what happens to it. I'm committed to making sure (as is possible) these dogs are kept current on heartworm prevention (major killer around here), these dogs aren't just left tied to a tree when someone gets pregnant (I offer a lifetime take back policy... I do not want my dogs dumped at the shelter because of a major lifestyle change), they are provided adequate vet care and things like that. I'm not such a stickler about what they are fed, though I do strongly suggest what I feel to be best... the whole adoption doesn't hinge on that. I mean, I won't deny someone an adoption if they feed Dog Chow vs. Wellness, though I much prefer the Wellness and other higher quality foods.

[quote name='kendalyn']
It's like someone giving up a kid for adoption but mandating throughout the kid's life what he/she is allowed to do and how the parents should treat the child. Or perhaps someone selling a car and continuously checking to see if it is getting all the scheduled oil changes.

Actually, the law DOES mandate how children, adopted or not, are to be treated. If you adopt a child and the government doesn't like the way you raise it, they DO have the right to "repossess" them.

I can't really relate to the car analogy as cars are inanimate objects and I place more value on the lives of my dogs.

[quote name='kendalyn']I really think that once the dog is released to the new owners, they should be able to decide everything that happens to the dog. It is after all their dog.

I agree. That's why I put so much effort in trying to find my idea of the best possible home, so that once the dog is home, hopefully the new responsible owners will not need my interference. I have only ever repossessed one dog and I'm glad I retained the right to do it. The family was inadvertently creating a monster with this dog and, despite my attempts to help with training and behavior modification, continued to encourage the behavior that would eventually cause this dog to be put to sleep. Since he was no longer in my physical custody, should I have stopped caring what happened to him? Again, even if the relationship was over, my commitment to him was not and I DID "repossess" him. I don't put forth the effort, time and money into these dogs to not care what happens to them and throw up my hands when they leave as no longer being my problem.

Again, it may not be perfect and it may p*ss off a lot of people, but I feel that the people who are so upset at my "rules" are probably best off buying a dog from a newspaper ad from someone who is happy to end their commitment as soon as the money hits their hand, or from a high kill shelter that really can't afford to be too picky and are glad to have nearly anyone adopt a dog. Since my dogs are not in danger of being put down, I can afford to be picky about who gets them. There are plenty of people out there who DON'T mind my pickiness. As a matter of fact, most appreciate the fact that I stay in touch and are happy to have me involved. These are the kind of people I want for my animals... not folks who think it's too much hassle. When they have questions, it's ME they call. Apparently, plenty of people appreciate the fact that I take a lifelong interest in these dogs. My "rescue" consists of my husband and me and all we can do is make the best judgments we can based on what we feel is best. I'm not getting into the whole right or wrong thing (that's all a matter of perception), but it's what works for US and so far, only one adoption hasn't worked out and that's the dog I got back. The rest are doing wonderfully in their new homes. If it works, we aren't going to try to fix it.

I'm sorry that it upsets some, but honestly my concern is more for the welfare of my dogs than for the hurt feelings of others. There are plenty of places to get dogs that will place a dog with anyone with the money. I don't understand why anyone would get upset with breeders or rescue groups who are choosy. Dogs are easy enough to get elsewhere. If the rules are bothersome, it's easy enough to choose not to agree and go elsewhere for a dog.