training frustrations

[samsmama]

Hi, I am a new dog owner and new to web based discussions! Sam is a year old golden retriever/ lab/ shepherd mix. I've had him for 2 months, and he's recently turned into kind of a terror. I am doing obedience training. Monday was my second class with him. I use a gentle leader, I make him sit before I feed him, I make sure I walk out the door before him, so I have been trying to establish the alpha dog role. But he is 75 pounds (maybe more) and he's a real handful. He pulls constantly. I've tried the "Zen" method of encouraging him not to pull with no luck. He actually pulled me off my feet and onto the ground two days ago. When we play fetch in the back yard he gets overly rambunctious and yesterday actually growled and snapped at me (in play?? I am not sure!). He jumps up. I try and shovel snow and he barks at me. He acts like a spoiled brat, even though I don't think I am spoiling him. Monday he barked and snarled at another dog in class. I am at my wits end. :oops:

I would love some feedback from other rambunctious dog owners who could give me some support here! I am really frustrated.

[MajiesMom]

Hang in there!!!!! It gets better trust me!
Obedience, obedience, obedience that's the only answer, there's no easy way around it.
I know exactly what you

[alpha sheltie]

Yep hang in there! It gets worse before getting better. Kaedyn (our rescue) came to us totally untrained. He didn't know a single command and had some dominance issues. He fought with Kai and we actually considered rehoming him to a single dog home because it got so bad. But then, he suddenly got better and now they act like the best of friends. Obedience has helped because the trainer suggested that it raised his confidence level (he got so stuck up..that he actually snapped at me for telling him to down) but..with some obedience practice, he's learned that I'm alpha and that's that. Just keep with it.

Have you thought of using a different type of collar? He sounds like a very strong dog..for Kai's pulling, I allowed him to self correct. He isn't a huge dog but he's very strong (and I'm really weak). I used the choke chain but I've heard that martingales are quite good too. If he doesn't seem to be responding, you may want to look into a prong collar. I used to think they were inhumane but after talking to our trainer, I've learned that they're quite humane (if used correctly). It's worked wonders for the most obnoxious dog I've seen (which is a tiny minpin in our class).

[Doglistener]

Hi Samsmama

Sounds as if Sam is becoming an adult, in human terms he is 15 years old an awkward time for humans as well as dogs.

I will try and help on the aggression side and if you want a program to stop Sam pulling post me again and I will give you a program for that part as well. this is one of my articles on aggression

[MajiesMom]

Doglistener - I have to admit I haven't read your post through yet but I am wondering why you don't recommend playing tug-o-war with any dog?

One other thing that I just can't leave unmentioned is you use the term POOR BREEDING AND RESCUE DOGS together. That gets to me because many dogs in rescue are not poorly breed they are from good lines with champion parents etc... but end up in rescue for whatever reason but are not necessarily poorly breed.

[Doglistener]

MajiesMom napisał(a):

Doglistener - I have to admit I haven't read your post through yet but I am wondering why you don't recommend playing tug-o-war with any dog?

One other thing that I just can't leave unmentioned is you use the term POOR BREEDING AND RESCUE DOGS together. That gets to me because many dogs in rescue are not poorly breed they are from good lines with champion parents etc... but end up in rescue for whatever reason but are not necessarily poorly breed.

Hi Leslie

Their are three reasons why I am against tug of war I see many dogs who's jaws and teeth are injured or badly affected by playing this game with puppies under 4.5 months old.

The reason your pup has those hypodermic needles is because it has no jaw muscles up till they start to form and the puppy teeth start to drop out.

The little sharp teeth are to teach the puppy bite inhibition ie not to put pressure on as it hurts.

This starts with the puppy suckling too hard and the mother getting up and walking away because too much pressure on the teat has been exerted, and the siblings squeal or bark and turn away from play when the pup presses too hard.

This is followed by the owners saying "ow" or "off" to further teach bite inhibition.

To then play Tug of War with a pup that has no jaw muscles and only milk teeth is dangerous and can dislocate the jaw and distort the teeth affecting the adult teeth when they come through.

Secondly in a young or adult dog I see many cases when this leads to object guarding and territorial guarding aggression.

And thirdly most people who play tug of war throw the tug down afterwards therefore the dog wins, giving the dog a heightened sense of it's own hierarchical position and that can lead to dominant aggression.

I actually recommend that some people do play tug and allow the dog to win but this is only in cases where the dogs have a severe lack of confidence or are timid.

I think you should read the post in it's entirety before commenting on POOR BREEDING AND RESCUE DOGS please note where the AND is then read on.

I am not suggesting that all rescue dogs come from poor breeding however poor breeding does form a significant part of the dogs I have to treat or the dogs I see in rescue.

What I am suggesting is please adopt by all means but be aware of the risks. And get as much background and information as possible.

Regards

Doglistener

[Daisysmom]

PLAY AGGRESSION
Play aggression is simply not having been taught how to "play nice", which sounds trite, but is very true. What appears to be "play aggression" may be the early stages of the what becomes "possessive aggression" if not corrected early on. Play aggression, in my experience is one of the easiest of aggressions to overcome.

My Jake and Chelsea play like this, how do you teach them to "play nice"?

[Doglistener]

[My Jake and Chelsea play like this, how do you teach them to "play nice"?[/quote]

Hi

Can you give me a bit more detail??

For instance how old are they? are they siblings. How long have you had them? did you get them together? are they regualrly sparring? do they draw blood? do they only play fight when you are there?

And Exactly what are they doing?

Cheers

Doglistener

[Daisysmom]

Hi, Chelsea was just a year old around Sept/Oct. She is a Border Collie/Lab/GR mix????? She was a rescue, so we're not sure. Jake is 7 months and a yellow lab, and they have been together for the past 7 months. They have only drawn blood once, and Jake was the one bleeding :o He is the biggest of my three. (Daisy- Choc lab - is four and doesn't partake much) They are constantly bitting each other's legs, necks and etc., and chasing and wrestling. It gets to be a realy pain, because they knock things over in the house at times. They are both mutually aggressive. Chelsea was around just a few months longer than Jake, but wanted to take the alpha role right away. Jake quickly took over the lead, but Chelsea keeps trying to get it back!!

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks :wink:

[Doglistener]

Hi

I don't think you have a problem, this isn't the play aggression I was refering to, I was alluding to the aggression when WE play with our dogs ie aggression aimed at humans whilst playing with your dogs.

What you are experiencing is normal adolescent and puppy behaviour and is a good way for them to let off steam. :lol:

However if you feel that it is getting out of hand do not allow them to do it indoors only outside.I would recommend for this situation either a water pistol and give them a squirt but do not give a command.

Or alternatively get a largish plastic pill bottle and put some nuts and bolts in it to make a rattle. To set this as a noise aversion deterrent, separate the dogs and set the noise aversion bottle on each one in turn whilst the other dog is not present.

To do this properly you need to get some small treats cheese is ideal and keep putting them on the floor and say "TAKE IT" after the 5/6th take it go to put the treat down but dont say take it and do not actually put the treat down, the dog will experience a quick pang of disappointment when their is no treat on the floor. At this momnt rattle the bottle and throw it on the floor.

Repeat this till the dog shows aversion to the sound. It will be obvious by the dogs body language.

Then repeat with the other dog. Then use the noise aversion technique whenever you want to stop unwanted behaviour.

Once again do not issue a command you want the dogs to think the noise comes because of their behaviour for it to work effectively. Do not overuse or they can become blaise and do not throw the bottle at the dogs only on the ground.

Their are about 15% of dogs that this method has no effect on!

Best of luck tell me how you get on.

Doglistener

[samsmama]

Thanks so much for all your encouragement and information. By the way, I've gotten Sam to walk fairly well on a leash, and the following week in dog training he was an excellent student! :D

Perhaps Sam has play aggression. I am not clear on what I should do to prevent that from happening again. When he barks at me when we're playing fetch with the ball, and the one time he snapped his teeth together in a biting motion (no where near any of my body parts), I turned my back to him and walked away from him. He stopped. He actually hasn't done it since, but I've also been reluctant to play fetch: He seems to get so wound up! If he does it again, should I just walk away?

He also is a bully ocassionally at the dog park and seems to be especially "interested" in super submissive dogs. How do I get him to leave other dogs alone that obviously don't want his attention? They're giving him all of these signs that his attention is unwanted, and even that he's scarying them, but he doesn't back off! The last time this happened, I put the leash on him and we went home! Any other suggestions?