Cropping and Docking

[KP]

Hey I posted this story on my site and people had a lot of opinions on the matter.

Dog fight over length of spaniel's tail

Reuters

[KP]

I personally don't agree with cropping or docking. I don't feel that its necissary to do because there is no medical reason found for doing it. It does look awsome on most breeds when done correctly but...I dunno it just doesn't seem worth it.

I feel most breeds especially dobermanns are more accepted with the natural look...

[Autumn]

Unfortunately, as of now, if anyone wants to show any of the breeds that have tail docking/ear clipping as a breed standard, they have to conform to AKC rules or they can't show in Breed classes. Maybe that will change in the future and I'm all for personal choice.

If I had one of those breeds and wasn't going to show them, I wouldn't have it done. Esp. the ear clipping. Usually, reputable breeder's have the tail docking done by a Vet when the puppies are no more than a day or two old, so you don't often get the choice of tail or no tail like you do with the ears. A relative of mine has a MinPin with unclipped ears and he is the cutest lil' thing you ever saw! I think it *softens* their appearance with the unclipped ears, eventhough he has a mighty feisty personality!

[DogPaddle]

"It would be like making declawing a cat an act of cruelty," she said.

I would call amputating digits and the first nuckle an act of cruelty. Cats can be taught what to claw and what not to claw, its just differnet from training dogs. I think that if you have done everything else to teach a cat not to claw your furniture and its declaw or get rid of the cat than go ahead and declaw but it is an extreme thing.

As for cropping. I am against it. It is done only for aesthetics. Breeds like cockers etc with hairy, droop ears who are prone to ear infections for this reason are not cropped but dogs like dobes with semi-erect hairless ears are cropped. As far as I know, other than ear infection, the only non-aesthetic reason to crop is because you plan to fight your dog and don't want the ear ripped off - and cutting flesh because you want to fight (abuse) your dog is evil.

As for docking. I am undecided. Some owners indicate that some breeds do themselves repeated injury banging their wagging boney tail off of things, others say this is rare, I just don't know.

So I guess I think the AKC et al. should allow undocked ears and maybe undocked tails unless undocked tails would interferes working ability or health/care in the paticular breed.

[kendalyn]

I would rather see dogs left alone in regards to tail and ears. I have a little sister through big brothers/big sisters who has a pit bull. They had his ears cropped and whoever did the cropping did a terrible job. The dog basically does not have ears any longer. I feel so bad for him.

There just doesn't seem to be any good reason for the alteration. Aesthetics are not a good enough reason for me.

[KP]

DogPaddle napisał(a):

"It would be like making declawing a cat an act of cruelty," she said.

I would call amputating digits and the first nuckle an act of cruelty. Cats can be taught what to claw and what not to claw, its just differnet from training dogs. I think that if you have done everything else to teach a cat not to claw your furniture and its declaw or get rid of the cat than go ahead and declaw but it is an extreme thing.

I would definately agree with this dogpaddle. They amputate I believe past the first knuckle. Declawing a cat can be very painful for them. Not just during the healing period but for a long time. Possibly their whole lives. They get the "phantom claws" (I can't remember exactly what they are called) but its like when a person has their limb amputated yet they still feel like they still have it. Its very common....and painful.

[dogsgalore]

I am against cropping and docking. Need we "improve" on nature? If a dog was supposed to have docked ears wouldn't God have sense enough to have them made this way? I know, dogs come from Wolves and such but wolves have intact ears and tails, God didn't see a need for them not to have them and they were given for a purpose.
:D I think Dobie's with uncropped ears are very cute and don't look so threatening this way.

I'm not for declawing cats either. We've had cats all my life and they haven't clawed up the furniture, they were always taught not to. Cats need their claws for protection, so declawing a cat could very well put it's life in danger.

[KP]

Actually, I've found disputing information about the history of dogs and wolves in all sorts of places. There is a book "The Company of Wolves" which says the dog was originally thought to have descended either from the coyote or the wolf, but genetic research finally concluded recently that the wolf is the ancestor of the dog.

The genetics of the wolf and dog are so close that it is not even possible to ascertain with any degree of certainty whether a wolf is a hybrid or pure in the wild any more. This is one of the big problems facing the people who want to reintroduce wolves back to the wild in areas where the wolf has been wiped out -- the endangered species law protects the genetically pure wolf but does not protect the wolf mixed with any dog blood. Bottom line is that it's seems to be virtually impossible to tell. And, yes, dog/wolf matings do produce fertile offspring.

[StarFox]

I think I might be the exception in this case. I like the way dogs with cropped ears and docked tails look. BUT...I do think it is cruel and wouldn't be upset if they stopped doing it. I personally love love love the way Dobermans look with croped ears and docked tails but I would never do it to them. I think if I wanted a cropped/docked dog I would just go down to the pound and get one that is already like that.

I have heard thought that certain breeds are better with docked tails. I think it is the Boxer (I could be wrong). I think Boxers don't have allot of muscle or fat on there tail so if they hit it against something hard while wagging the tail will split. I've heard some boxer owners say that they got there dogs tail docked after the dog split it open 3 or 4 times by hitting it on something.

[KP]

My dobermann has what I call a helicopter tail. That thing is always swingin crazy. You can tell she is a very happy dog. I have never seen that tail not waggin, high and proud I might add. Its a leathal weapon practically lol. As nice as it would be to not have the entire coffee table cleared everytime someone walked in the front door, I think I'd miss her tail. It gives her so much character. For her it doesn't seem to bother her when she knocks it into stuff. Haven't had any injuries yet.

Then again this girl has an extremely high tolerance for pain. She will run full speed and hit her head on the bottom of our oak coffee table and it doesn't phase her a bit. I swear she feels no pain. She plays hard. She's so ruff!

[Autumn]

I have a purebred Aussie and an Aussie/BC. My Aussie/BC is blk/wt and has a full beautiful tail. When he holds it up, the tip spills over like a plume. In his winter coat, when he holds it down, it touches the ground! His tail is always wagging too. He is one happy dog!

I also love my little Aussie girls tail less butt too! I call her, *Miss Wiggle Butt*, because when she wags her *tail*, her whole butt wiggles, and frankly, I like the Aussie w/out a tail. That's one of the things that makes them an Aussie! If I happened to get one with a full tail I would never have it docked, but if I bought a puppy, I would get one with a docked tail.

[Guest Anonymous]

Here's an interesting link about tail docking....

http://www.dogbody.com/

[KP]

NY Court: Dog Owner Barking Up Wrong Tree
Dec 23, 2003 4:57 pm US/Eastern
(1010 WINS) (ALBANY) The state's highest court decided Tuesday that Jon H. Hammer was barking up the wrong tree.

The Court of Appeals said in a 6-0 ruling that Hammer cannot get the courts to change the breed standards for the Brittany established by the American Kennel Club and American Brittany Club.

Specifically, Hammer sought to stop having points deducted from his Brittany, Ms. Dale's Spooner, at dog shows because the animal does not have a "docked," or clipped, tail.

Breed standards state that any Brittany with a tail "substantially" longer than four inches shall be "severely penalized" by show judges. Ms. Dale's Spooner undocked tail is 10 inches long.

Hammer, a Manhattan lawyer, argued that docking a dog's tail violates state laws prohibiting animals from being "unjustifiably injured, maimed, mutilated or killed."

The court said that law gives police agencies and local societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals the power to enforce anti-cruelty statutes. Since Hammer's case does not allege that either the American Kennel Club and the American Brittany Club are cruelly or unjustifiably injuring or maiming dogs, the groups didn't engage in any conduct that violated the law, the court ruled Tuesday.

The judges also found that private citizens don't have standing to bring a claim under the state animal cruelty law, which is a criminal statute.

Dale Christensen Jr., a lawyer for the American Kennel Club, called the decision "well-reasoned."

"It is a vindication of the position of the American Kennel Club and the American Brittany Club were taking, that there should not be judicial interference in the activities of standard-setting sports organizations," Christensen said.

To have a court disturb breed rules "would open the door, frankly, to a whole host of challenges and it could become difficult" for dog clubs to remain the arbiters of their sport, according to Christensen.

There are 148 different breed clubs affiliated with the American Kennel Club. They set rules for the "idealized way the dog should appear or move or carry itself" depending on its breed, Christensen said.

Several of the breed groups affiliated with the American Kennel Club filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the case in defense of the club's position.

The club argued in its court papers that a Brittany is bred for hunting and that the docking of the tail is designed to prevent injury while they in the field.

Hammer and the dog clubs differed in their court papers over whether anesthetic is used by veterinarians when docking dogs.

Joseph Foley, lawyer for Hammer, said "we're disappointed" by the ruling, but he declined other comment until he studied the decision.

The ruling upheld a decision by the midlevel Appellate Division of state Supreme Court.

(

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Autumn']I have a purebred Aussie and an Aussie/BC. My Aussie/BC is blk/wt and has a full beautiful tail. When he holds it up, the tip spills over like a plume. In his winter coat, when he holds it down, it touches the ground! His tail is always wagging too. He is one happy dog!

I also love my little Aussie girls tail less butt too! I call her, *Miss Wiggle Butt*, because when she wags her *tail*, her whole butt wiggles, and frankly, I like the Aussie w/out a tail. That's one of the things that makes them an Aussie! If I happened to get one with a full tail I would never have it docked, but if I bought a puppy, I would get one with a docked tail.


Ooh, glad you posted this, I was about to ask about the Aussie :wink: As many of you know, I'm a HUUUUUGE fan of the border collie, and if it wasn't for the Aussie, I wouldn't have become a fan of the BC (long story), and so my first love was always the Aussie. I LOVE LOVE LOVE their LOOOOONG BEAUTIFUL tail. So I guess I am on the other side :wink: However, I do think their little "wiggle bum" is cute, but my Lab + BC does the "wiggle bum" and has this LOOOONG skinny funny looking tail, and without it, I don't think he could perfect the wiggle bum because he has very poor ballance as it is :lol: :wink: I know that tails on Cats give them balance, and have no doubt a dog uses theirs for balance as well, so there is another thing to be put into the question... Dogs, such as the Aussie, who may have to make sharp turns while herding, or even doing agility, where balance is a big key, is it affected any by the loss of it's tail? Or do the dogs learn to cope with it? Has there been any tests done out there, say comparing two Aussies of the same heritage, same training, same up brining, one tail docked, one left, running an agility course, to see if either have better balance? The individual dog would have to be taken in about the ballance as well of course, because just some dogs have poorer balance then others. But I would really like to see if there's a difference in tail docking.

Autumn - I don't know as much about stuff like this, even about the Aussie, so if you know, or anyone else at that matter, I'd be glad to listen... Does the aussie (or any other working breed for that matter) become affected in it's "line of work" by it's tail, or even ears, that it needs to be cropped or docked? Is there any breeds out there that there's a good solid REASON for docking or cropping, besides for looks?

I agree as well, I like the dobie with it's floppy ears and long tail! I think they look so cute, although since Dobbies have been used as gaurd dogs, I could see why anyone would want their ears and dail cropped, since it does make them look more feirce. However, I think any pair of snapping jaws and deep bark would be a good enough warning to me to stay away from someone's property, no matter WHAT the dog looked like :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Couple more things i forgot to add...

DogPaddle napisał(a):

As for cropping. I am against it. It is done only for aesthetics. Breeds like cockers etc with hairy, droop ears who are prone to ear infections for this reason are not cropped but dogs like dobes with semi-erect hairless ears are cropped. As far as I know, other than ear infection, the only non-aesthetic reason to crop is because you plan to fight your dog and don't want the ear ripped off - and cutting flesh because you want to fight (abuse) your dog is evil.

(once again, anyone correct me if I'm wrong) Aren't most hunting breeds with long ears, don't their ears serve a purpose? I know with the Bloodhound, so I'm guessing other long eared dogs, when their snout is to the ground, I heard that the sent is picked up by the ears and traveled to their nose, and the long ears are actually a big helper in the hound dog's sence of smell. So Ear infection wise, best bet would just to keep them as clean as possible and stuff, but the long ears DO serve a purpose, and cropping them would effect the dog's ability to be a scent hound :wink:


As for Cats, our cats have been taught to not scratch on the frunture (sp? :oops: ) although sometimes they DO get caught doing it :evil: But if we were to declaw them, it WOULD indanger their health. Our cats are indoor and outdoor cats (although more indoor, the lazy buggers :lol: ) and they do hunt mice and birds. There are no indangered birds or mice or anything of that sort around here, that I am aware of, and if there were, I think I'd try to do something about my kitties hunting, otherwise, it's just an act of nature, and I let them do (although it is sad, and quite disgusting to find :-? ) what is in their nature. As for their health, it would be indangered without their claws because there are many wild animals, as well as dogs around here who would love to have a kitty snack. Our cats are MASTER tree climbers :wink: And without their claws, I'd be very scared they couldn't escape any one who might be chasing them. There are MANY trees around here, so I'm not in any way scared there wouldn't be a tree close enough near by them. If they are not close enough to the forest that surrounds us, their closer to the house, and can climb under the front porch, on the back porch high up, or get let in, there is almost always someone there to let a kitty in, I swear it's all I do all day is open that door! :lol: :wink: So in conclusion to this long statement, I basiclly mean to say I think declawing cats is not only cruel, but hazzordous to their health, cats that live in my enviroment anyways :wink:

[Sharpeigirl]

I don't like either one.

Finally found a rottie pic with full tail!!

[kendalyn]

That looks nice! Why do they chop it off??

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that both are approriate in a given setting. there is nothing wrong with cropping your dog, it doesnt cause much pain in a pup and depending on the breed its part of the look. I had a dobie that was kept natural ears but docked tail. she was beautiful. we had a male and we docked and cropped. didnt bother him at all.. i think its more for the look of the dog the cropped ears give the dog a harder appearance. in a guard breed that the idea.

my APBT male has his ears done (too short for my taste, but thats another topic) my female is natural. he wasnt bothered by it and it gives him a much bullier appearance. she has

I think its silly to have all of these state laws and such over cropping and docking, when there are so many other things that are truely cruel that people do to dogs. JMO

[Guest Anonymous]

here is a link with pics of others:

http://www.rottclub.ca/tail.html


I have noted that most Breed standards have adopted the naturl tail and has ameneded to reflect the correct natural tail too.

pretty cool.

[KP]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

There is nothing wrong with cropping your dog, it doesnt cause much pain in a pup and depending on the breed its part of the look.

I'm not trying to be a bratt or anything so please don't take it that way :D but I'm not understanding this... What is your reasoning on why you feel its not much pain for a pup? You didn't really elaborate on that...

My side to debate with this is that I don't feel it should be "just because" its an adopted part of the look for these breeds. Its cosmetic. Its not natural. How can you even for the sake of showing a dog, if that were the case, judge a breeds perfection by altering its look?? That just doesn't make sense to me. I just don't understand the reasoning.

Yes I have the choice of keeping my dogs out of show and thats fine with me. I don't show my dogs but for the people who do the dog doesn't have the choice not to go through the (what I feel is a painful and unnecissary surgery). I've never had a surgery that wasn't painful...

To me this is like paying for your 4 year old daughter (who doesn't know the difference, other than feeling the pain) to get breast implants because it's "the look". What's the purpous in it? I just can't see the point...

[Guest Anonymous]

I had puppies that neededto be docked or cropped and i think the shock of being away from the litter was more then the pain of being docked. a quick whine and as soon as the pup was back with its littermates it calmed instantly. I am not saying that its totally painless but docking a 6 day old pup is leaps and bounds different than docking a 6 month old. The nerve endings in a pup are barely firing so its less pain to do it young. much like the circumsizing (sp?) of a man. doing it as an infant versus having it done as an adult. Your problem is more with why do it. Many breed standards are changing ot reflect the natural look of some breeds. But how can you say "you cant crop or dock your dog, because i dont want to cro por dock mine?" its not right. i think its a mattter of choice and in the show community its tradition-- when a natural dog wins a show its a big deal, like the underdog winnin the race or something.

Not saying that i prefer docked or cropped animals, just saying that my males have always been docked/cropped depending on breed but for females i like the softer, gentle look so she was docked only. thats just me.

[justice82003]

Not saying that i prefer docked or cropped animals, just saying that my males have always been docked/cropped depending on breed but for females i like the softer, gentle look so she was docked only. thats just me.

:D Thats the same with me I cropped my males ears but I want to leave my next pups natural, so she looks more feminine.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh WOW! I just LOVE that long Rottie tail!!! :D

Well... I think that in shows it shouldn't be a requirement. If I took up showing Australian Shepherds, I would have to search high and low for a place that would accept the tail, which is a shame, because that tail is so gorgous!

And I still haven't got my question answered...

[KP]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Your problem is more with why do it.

Well, I feel its a valid reason. There is no purpous in why it should be done.

But how can you say "you cant crop or dock your dog, because i dont want to cro por dock mine?" its not right. i think its a mattter of choice and in the show community its tradition-- when a natural dog wins a show its a big deal, like the underdog winnin the race or something.

I never said that once. You are twisting my words. Why? I did say I don't crop my animals and that is my choice and being that this is the debate forum I stated my opinion on this matter. In all actuality it's not hardly right to chastize me for debating my personal opinion in the debate forum... is it? Voice your opinion. Thats what we are here for but don't instruct me as to what mine should be especially while twisting my words.

I fully realize that it is choice for this topic. I don't feel purpous in why it should be done and the fact that it is done causes too many people abuse the proceedure and at the innapropriate ages because it is a "desired" look only because AKC etc. promotes the look and to show these dogs many times there are these requirements for show standards. If these standards and requirements were removed less people would probably abuse the proceedure just because its "desired" and you would see more natural dogs which in my opinion are what should be shown since they are supposed to be an example of "breed perfection". I mean if you are going to go for that title it should be done the right way.

Not all dogs are cropped or docked at a young age and it is not always done properly. These requirements are why. In my opinion if the dog is going to be cropped or docked it should be done by a vet within the first couple days of life but this is not always done. I still feel that its painful reguardless of what age but its best to do it as early as possible by someone who knows what they are doing. This is also why I'm against it AND the fact that there is no purpous for it in the first place. Dogs don't always show they are in pain. After my dog was spayed she was so excited to see us you wouldn't even be able to tell she had a surgery. Acted like any other day and did so the whole time she had the stitches in although she wimpered if something touched her tummy. That didn't mean it didn't hurt any other time... how could it not?

Someone pointed out on my site with this topic, you have the jerks who put rubberbands around the tails to cut off the circulation. Then we're talkin' about long term pain, possible infection and if unlucky enough death. It takes a long time for the tail to die and fall off and there are people stupid enough to do this to an adult dog!

She also said that AKC and show standards have actually ruined most dog breeds from what they initially were and that thankfully there are still breeders fighting to keep the breeds pure and for the purpose they were bred, and I have to agree for the most part.

[KP]

Shara, the same woman I quoted also said that she just heard there are breeder's trying to breed herding out of the Austrailian Shepherds so more city people can keep them in apartments.