For DARK MYSTERY

[Guest Anonymous]

I am sorry i have had to put this in everything about dogs section and not breeding section but i cant log in :evil:

But i feel the need to address Dark Mystery's posts :lol:

(Yes all of them :oops: )
so firstly.
this one.
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:21 am Post subject: Help! A bad situation.

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I am in a bad situation. My dog had some puppies. I took the pups in for a health check less than a week before I let the pups go. They all had a clean bill of health. The day the people came to get the pup we all saw blood come from her rear. I offered them a full refund or $100 to take it to the vet. They chose the $100 and take it to the vet in my city. The vet said it had colitis and gave them some antibiotics and they deciced to take the puppy home with them which they live out of state. I told them I would pay for drugs to treat the pup. Well, the pup is worse and they took it to the vet again.

They took the pup which they knew was sick, even taking it to the vet before they left town on my dime. Since they took a puppy with the full knowledge it was sick, how responsible am I? I offered them a refund of the money they had given me and they turned it down. I did not try to talk them into taking the puppy or anything close. I feel bad about the pup, but do not know how much I owe them since they knew it was sick. I guarantee the pups but what about in this case? Help.

AN ILL OR EVEN OFF COLOUR PUPPY SHOULD NOT LEAVE THE NEST UNTILL IT IS 100% how responsible are you? TOTALLY.
Oh and what happened to the puppy?????????????

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:07 am Post subject: "Backyard breeding" & "puppymills"

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I just have to say that some people really
go overboard with the backyard breeder and puppymill thing. Not
everyone can have acres of land and a actual "kennel" facility. You
can build a nice area in a backyard. You could even in a garage. In a
garage it is even indoors and they might have cooling in summer and
heat in winter! Even an official "kennel" facility can be ill kept.
Just having an official facility does not guarantee fantastic
animals.

News flash, even people competing in Crufts and other big
shows have been charged with animal abuse and p*** poor environmental
conditions. And for some reason, some people think you have to show
in order to be legit and have good dogs. People in Crufts have had
winning dogs, but do not take proper care of them. Then there could
be someone who has dogs in there backyard, loves them, cleans, gives
them fresh water in a clean green free bowl, takes them to the vet,
gives them heat in winter, brushes them if they need to be and you
call them "backyard breeders". It isn't right or fair. Maybe some do
not breed on a grand scale and do not need a complete "kennel"
facility.

Breeding dogs for profit is another issue. Well,those that do
have an official "kennel", they are running an official business.
They have a tax ID #, and are registered with AKC! And here in the
US, business is for profit...capitalism.

Think of a restaurant. Some are big & fancy and some are a little dive
mom and pop place. Does that mean the dive restaurant is evil and no
one should eat there? Only eat at the fancy restaurant? No.

Some have a fancier facility for there dogs than others. That does not mean don't buy from the place that has dogs in the backyard. And MANY kennels breed more than one breed too. They have a good number of dogs. Hummm. Doesn't that make them a puppymill?


Ok. So, What you are calling "breeders" really sounds more like
a non-profit organization. Those people really aren't breeders. These
are people that every so often mate there dogs! It really isn't to make
dogs for people to own and enjoy. People should be able to own a certain
breed and of course you try and put them in good homes. A spanish
inquisition is not necessary. Like I said, people have really gone crazy
throwing out these "backyard breeder" and "puppymill" labels. People
that do are acting as if they are higher than thou &
self-rightous. People put down others just to give themselves a feeling
of being better than.

Now, there are puppymills out there. You know, the ones that do not give
health care to there dogs, crowd them, give them no heat or cooling,
no love and they live in cages all the time nor nearly all of the time.

The label backyard breeders was made up by the higher than thou's
that realized not all were not puppymills but still were not as high up as
what you laid out in your message. So, you had to come up with some
kind of label for those not as good as you.

What you laid out as "breeders" aren't even breeders in the first place!
They shouldn't even call themselves breeders!!!

Yes it is commonly known that not all dog owners be they show breeders, commercial breeders, BYB, puppy farmers or mills do not give their dogs the correct care and housing that they need to, the same can be said about many many pet homes. Usually in the pet homes section it is due to ignorance, i am afraid in the breeding section it is due to no ethics or morals.
And it is also true that some TOP BREEDERS are also puppy farmers and commercial breeders who breed many other breeds to finance their top dogs.
I assume from your ranting post that someone has called you a BYB!
Could it be the person who owned the puppy in the post above? :roll:
Many people think breeding dogs is easy money, fun, and do not even
know or understand about breeds, type, standards, breed problems, responsibility of the breeder, the stud dog owner or anything else for that matter. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE I CALL BACKYARD BREEDERS,
but that is my opinion :lol:
I think i will agree with you that the term BYB is thrown around alot.
But i will also tell you that most purebred dogs that end up in shelters come from those breeders. WHY? because they are not careful enough who buys their pups, they offer no aftercare, support , they just want the money end of conversation......I know where ALL the dogs i have bred over the years are, i know when they die, i know when they are ill, i have only ever had to take one back, and that was due to circumstances beyond the owners control.
In the pack that goes out with the pups i do always have these words written in, PLEASE REMEMBER YOU MAY HAVE PURCHASED THIS PUPPY FROM US BUT IT IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE ONE OF OUR BABIES, WE NEED CONSTANT UNDATES, PHOTO'S. IF AT ANY TIME YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUPPY, BE IT BIG OR SMALL RING US ANYTIME DAY OR NIGHT, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR.
I wouldn't call myself a self-righteous show breeder, i would call myself a responsible ethical moral breeder who cares about what they breed and where they go. I also have no time for BYB who will not learn or listen and do not care (although they often think they do) :(


Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:09 am Post subject: About "breeders"

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People out there call themselves "breeders" when they really aren't. They
think that because they have a litter every now and then it means they
are a breeder. They have a litter with the intent of keeping one or two for
there showing career. The rest of the pups go to other homes. Well, the
dictionary says,"breeder: one that breeds : an animal or plant kept for
propagation". Sounds to me like these folks are not keeping these animals
for propagation. So lets have these people stop calling themselves
breeders because they are NOT. They make people believe that if they
do not do it how they do (when they aren't even true breeders by
definition), they are PM's and BYB's!

Now, one other thing. I have seen auctions being condemned and the
people selling that way. I personally have reserved my opinion on the
subject, but have thought a lot about it. Horses, cows, pigs, and other
animals are sold at auctions all the time. I also know there are shows of
horses, cows, chickens. I've seen the awards for them. Dogs get awards
too for showing and being the top dog. What makes the dogs a different
class? Because they live in our house and chickens, pigs and horses
don't? A breeder friend of mine in Washington state actually refers to her
dogs as "livestock". That to me means there is no affection. She saw
them just like you would see a cow or pig or whatever. Yet, a dog is an
animal just like they are. We just seem to have more of a affectionate
feeling for them. I guess this is what seems to make them a class above
other animals. Yes? And therefore to be sold and bred on a different level?


I would very much like to hear what others have to say about this subject.

People who you say are not breeders, obviously breed to keep something else to show, they are obviously trying to breed to the STANDARD, trying to improve............ they are the GUARDIANS OF THE BREED, they are the CUSTODIANS they try to protect the breed from irresponsible, ignorant people who dont know what they are talking about andare not interested in learning.

As to auctioning of dogs, in this country UK, it is against the Kennel Clubs code of ethics. I for one agree with that. Why? because i think it is imoral
and unethical. There are plenty of dogs in shelters and breed rescues throughout the world, and if IDIOTS would stop pumpimg out puppies and selling them to anyone this may stop a bit of the sadness inflicted on the
general public and the caring people out there.
WAS THAT SELF RIGHTEOUS FOR YOU :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DogPaddle]

Roo - I will post this in the breeding forum for you, just in case. Respond where you can and I will copy if you like.

[Guest Anonymous]

:lol: Thanks DP :lol:

[DogPaddle]

NP

[Guest Anonymous]

Yea Roo
I am with you completely and just who is this person who thinks she is god.
We know nothing about her and yet she thinks can rant on at reputable breeders in this disrepectful manner.
Sounds like she needs to get a life
Ickle

[Guest Anonymous]

I have never been mean or nasty to anyone. All I said was I didn't not think
it was right to call people BYB and PM's.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am indeed genuine. I never wanted everyone to get so heated.
I merely wanted to say I just thought it wasn't nice to label
people. Many of the breeders out there really do love there
dogs.


I didn't realize when I posted that what I had to say was going to
insite nasty, cruel postings. I just thought I would state what I thought
about the labels. I am a novice on the board. I've never posted on forums
before and obviously misjudged what subjects were acceptable to speak
about and what aren't. Or at least, my side of the subject.

I love animals and harm none (man or beast).

[Malamum]

Darkmystery,

I don't believe that anyone has been overly nasty, they have just stated why they believe your take on breeding is wrong (myself included).

In my opinion there are varying degrees of responsibility in breeders.

You have your very responsible breeders who do everything right (meet all the criteria we have listed in the other threads) lets call them white. Then you have your totally abhorrent puppy millers who abuse dogs through neglect and we'll call them black. Now there is also lots of backyard breeders out there who fall somewhere in between these two categories so we'll call them shades of gray (and of course some are obviously dark gray and others are only light gray).

From what I can gather from your posts I would say you fall into this gray area. You don't abuse your dogs in any shape or form but neither do you take all the necessary steps to be a responsible breeder.

You may not by intent harm any dogs but as a breeder you are 100% responsible for any and every pup that you bring into the world.

What about the pup that ends up with severe hip displaysia two years down the track because you thought the two dogs you bred were healthy enough and didn't require testing for HD? (this can apply to any genetic condition I just used HD as an example)

What about the pup that ends up in a shelter and is PTS a few years later because the family you sold it to decide they don't really want a dog anymore, or it

[Guest Anonymous]

I do understand ALL the posts here. I see your side just fine. I never
said anything was wrong with your view.

<<What about the pup that ends up in a shelter and is PTS a few years later because
the family you sold it to decide they don't really want a dog anymore, or it

[Malamum]

Ok, you answered my points re spay/neuter contracts and that all dogs must be returned to you. What about the one that gets HD because the parents weren't tested and what about the one that gets hit by the car because the homes weren't screened ( I know accidents can happen but I was just using this as an example to show a careless attitude that could have been picked up on at time of placement).

Darkmystery wrote

Ok. So, What you are calling "breeders" really sounds more like
a non-profit organization. Those people really aren't breeders. These
are people that every so often mate there dogs! It really isn't to make
dogs for people to own and enjoy. People should be able to own a certain
breed and of course you try and put them in good homes. A spanish
inquisition is not necessary. Like I said, people have really gone crazy
throwing out these "backyard breeder" and "puppymill" labels. People
that do are acting as if they are higher than thou &
self-rightous. People put down others just to give themselves a feeling
of being better than.

Now, there are puppymills out there. You know, the ones that do not give
health care to there dogs, crowd them, give them no heat or cooling,
no love and they live in cages all the time nor nearly all of the time.

The label backyard breeders was made up by the higher than thou's
that realized not all were not puppymills but still were not as high up as
what you laid out in your message. So, you had to come up with some
kind of label for those not as good as you.

From your post above you pretty much told us yourself that you aren't a puppy mill but that you weren't a responsible breeder either. We pointed out what we considered a responsible breeder and you seemed to refute this as nonsense.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't understand all the posts. I meant hang around read all our posts on all subjects (not just this one), get to know us and then you will see why we think the way we do.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not sure what you mean by health certifications.

I do want to get genetic testing done, I just haven't found out where
to have it done.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

I am indeed genuine. I never wanted everyone to get so heated.
I merely wanted to say I just thought it wasn't nice to label
people. Many of the breeders out there really do love there
dogs.


I didn't realize when I posted that what I had to say was going to
insite nasty, cruel postings. I just thought I would state what I thought
about the labels. I am a novice on the board. I've never posted on forums
before and obviously misjudged what subjects were acceptable to speak
about and what aren't. Or at least, my side of the subject.

I love animals and harm none (man or beast).

If you feel my post was cruel or nasty :o I suggest you re read it all.
Stick around dark mystery :lol:
We all share one thing here it may not be opinions, but we all love dogs.
I am very vocal on some subjects, but these are subjects that i feel strongly about.
And what did happen to the pup?

[Guest Anonymous]

To Roo:

They NEVER called me a BYB! That puppy
is doing great and they keep in touch and send me pics of it.
They even had there friend by a pup from me!! They phones me still
just to chat about there dog. They thought
I handled everything well.

They would have been very angry and say I was awful for NOT
trying to work out the situation. I believe I did everything right
in that circumstance. I know you disagree Roo.

[Guest Anonymous]

IMHO I would have to say that giving someone a sick puppy (even if they want it..even with money) is wrong. You are the "breeder" that pups life line, you brought that pup into this world therefore you are responsible for that pup. I do not care if you sent someone away mad.. If they want a puppy enough and are in it for the "right" reasons(ie loving the dog caring for it) then they will want they dog better before changing its environment and stressing it even more.
The puppy was diagnosed with Colitis you said.. So do you wonder what caused it? Bacteria infection, parasites, stress, allergies to food, or etc... You know for the sake of your dogs and other pups!

If I have a pup start bleeding from the rear that dog is not even LEAVING my house. Throw a fit, cuss, slam something down.. I can have you thrown off my property...because if that is what it comes down too then you do not need my pups in the first place.

[Guest Anonymous]

Colitis is not an infectous but it can be cause by the wrong diet & stress
I Know this because I suffer from it myself.
Now on a red meat free diet which does help a lot & I try not to get stressed
Ickle

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

Colitis is not an infectous problem but it can be cause by the wrong diet & stress
I Know this because I suffer from it myself.
Now on a red meat free diet which does help a lot & I try not to get stressed
Ickle

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you Ickle.

Colitis is not infectious. It is also minor. Easy to treat.

I am not going to continue with this. Say all you want about me. I believe
I did everything right in that situation. You were not there. Call me the
worst breeder in history. Tell me I'm going to burn in hell for my decision.
Under ALL of the circumstances (which you are not aware of), I did the
right thing in THIS particular situation.

[Malamum]

Newfiemon that is an excellent brochure. Putting it in picture format really gets the message across and grabs attention a lot more than text alone.

[kendalyn]

Makes a good point. Genetics is important, especially in purebreads as they are more likely to carry genetic ailments.

[Guest Anonymous]

There are many different causes of canine colitis. Diet, parasites, bacterial infections, and even stress are among the more common causes of colitis in dogs.
http://www.gooddogmagazine.com/colitis.htm
Common Causes of Colitis:
1. Parasitic - Whipworms reside in the upper colon (unlike hooks and rounds); protozoan parasites in some areas of the country are caused by Giardia, Trichomona, Amoeba and Balantida.
2. Foreign Body Colitis - We've all seen the dog that eats grass and straw. This indigestible fiber really irritates the large bowel. Any dog with pica (the compulsion to eat non food material) is a candidate for intermittent colitis.
3. Bacterial Colitis - Often is caused by Salmonella and Campylobacter.
4. Chronic Inflammatory Bowel Disease ( IBD )- This is an important group. This disorder is due to an invasion of the wall of the large bowel by certain types of body cells. Eosinophilic Colitis is a good example. Another common cellular infiltration into the wall of the large bowel is due to lymphocytes and plasmacytes. This is referred to by veterinarians as LPIBD... Lymphocytic-plasmacytic Inflammatory Bowel Disease and is thought to be due in great measure to allergic reactions within the bowel and even throughout the digestive tract. The wall of the large intestine is invaded by the individual's own inflammatory cells in response to some triggering antigen. An allergen is any substance that incites an immune reaction.
5. Irritable Bowel Syndrome - Usually has a neurological or psychological origin. It is seen often in the hyper-excitable dog that is stressed, overworked, or apprehensive.
6. Typhilitis - Inflammation of the cecum which is a dead-end pocket branching from the intestinal tract where the small and large intestine join. (The medical term for this area is Ileoceco-colic junction.) This is located near where the human appendix would be, however dogs and cats don't have an appendix.
7. Cancer - The two most common types are lymphosarcoma and adenocarcinoma.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/colitis.html

Acute Colitis
Whipworms
Spastic colitis
Bacterial colitis
Fungal colitis
Food-induced

Chronic Colitis
Whipworms
Eosinophilic colitis
Ulcerative colitis
Histoplasma
Prototheca
Polyps
Tumors
Allergies (including food allergies)
Foreign body
Spastic colitis
Histocytic ulcerative colitis
Plasmacytic lymphocytic colitis
Immunoproliferation enteritis
http://www.executec.com/colitis.htm

Whipworms are infectious. Bacterial and fungal could occur in the rest of the pups also. As well as the mother. The others could be passed genetically. Colitis is a very general term there are several REASONS it happens and MANY types of Colitis.
I understand what you are saying Ickle some colitis is simple (allergies or stress) but take Histocytic ulcerative colitis it is in Frenchies and they are not sure of it genetic link but not to breed the affected or their parents or sibs.