Help me settle this argument

[ferky1]

This argument/dispute/fight is between my wife and I:

We purchased Miles in June 2003 from a breeder that was recommended to us by the American Shih Tzu Club. Miles and his siblings were advertised as being pure-breed shih tzus from champion parents and we purchased him under what we were told was a 'limited AKC registration contract,' meaning that we were agreeing to purchase him as a pet, not a show dog, and we agreed to have him neutered. This was fine with us because we wanted a pet, not a show dog or breeding dog.

Miles has turned out to be better than we could have ever hoped for. His loving nature, trainability, look, temperament, etc. are absolutely perfect. Naturally, I can give credit where it is due and I know that a lot of what I love about Miles comes from thoughtful breeding. I have complimented the breeder in the past and would purchase from her again, except for this one problem:

We were promised AKC registration papers and never received them. First we were told that she (the breeder) wouldn't give them until Miles was neutered. When that was done she said that she was waiting for certain information to come back about the father. Three weeks ago she said that the information was about to be put in the mail. Still nothing.

We bought Miles in New Jersey, where they have a consumer protection law governing the sale of animals which states that if a pet dealer fails to provide advertised papers within 120 days of sale, then the purchaser can 1) return the pup for a full refund (absolutely NOT!), or 2) keep the pup and get a 75% refund. As Miles cost over $1,000, this is a significant sum. October 30 will be 120 days.

So this is the fight. Miles is perfect, we are all happy and AKC registration does nothing for us or him. My wife thinks that we should ignore the pointless registration issue and not pursue this. I, on the other hand, think that a business person needs to stand by what they advertise and if the law provides a consumer remedy, why not pursue that remedy? I am not a litigious person (I am an attorney but I am a corporate transactional guy, no courtrooms for me) and I do not look for every way to sue somebody and squeeze every penny. The fact is that we paid a lot for Miles and I expect to get what was advertised. I have written a letter to the breeder (nicely) informing her of the missing papers and copying her on the NJ statute that offers us a remedy. My wife does not want me to send it. What do you think?

[ellieangel]

I say if you can fight it then fight it,you have not got what you paid for.

[Nancy B]

ferky1 napisał(a):

we purchased him under what we were told was a 'limited AKC registration contract,'

If this is specified in your contract, tell the breeder that you will be notifying the AKC if she does not forward the registration to you immediately. The AKC will come down hard on breeders who sell pups as "AKC registered" and then do not supply the registration. Doesn't matter if it was a full or limited registration. If your contract specifies AKC registration, the breeder needs to supply it.

If your breeder does not respond to your demand then, go ahead and contact the AKC to let them know that the breeder is selling "AKC registered" dogs but, not supplying the registrations.

[midori115]

I would send the letter to her and copy the AKC ....

[imported_Kat]

Certainly you should have had a pedigree registration by now. Notify the kennel club if you receive no confirmation from the breeder by the due date. It isn't responsible breeding if he/she doesn't produce the legal documentation and the breeder can actually lose their licence over this in the UK, although I am not sure if the same applies in the USA.

[Carolk9s]

I agree with everyone above, go for the papers. In addition to what has already been said, who knows what you might want to do in the future with Miles. Right now he's your loving pet, you might at some point decide that obedience or agility is loads of fun and you would like to enter him in AKC trials. You will NEED his registration for this or you would have to ILP him. ILP means you would need to send photos to AKC to prove he looks very much like a Shih Tzu.
She ADVERTISED him as an AKC dog, you PAID for an AKC dog, you deserve the papers as well.

[Peng1zrule]

send it...i think you have every right to!

[ferky1]

Thanks for the replies (and helping me win the argument :wink: )

Frankly, sometimes it's difficult to tell if I'm being smart or just another a**hole lawyer. My wife usually thinks it's option 2 :o .

It will be interesting to see how the breeder responds. . .

[imported_Cassie]

You wouldn't beleive how often this happens...especially to people who buy pet quality pups....breeders get lazy and keep putting off sending the proper doc's in to the AKC (in my country its the CKC)
I know of many many reputable breeders who have done things like this...they do not hesitate when it is a pup with show quality which will be shown...and believe me, it costs next to nothing to register a pup...the breeder is just putting it off.
Give them another chance, tell them you really would like to have the papers...there are even some show events in conformation for spayed and neutered dogs...at least with the CKC there are, and you need reg. papers for obedience trials.

[Malamum]

I agree with the others. You should get the papers. I know it won't make a difference in your day-to-day lives but it's the principle.

[courtnek]

I also agree that you should send the letter, and also alert the AKC...

not because you need the papers, or even want them, but because
being stood up to may prevent the breeder from doing this to other
people, who may want the papers even if the dog is just a pet....

someone has to speak out. Maybe it should be you....

I am a firm believer in fighting the fight, not just because I may benefit,
but because people down the line will also benefit. If we all stood up for each other the world would be a better place.

I am now helping the police try to find the people who tried to steal my dog...I have her back, but what's to stop them from stealing someone
elses? It's because I fought that I got her back so timely.

I'm glad you sent the letter.

[Guest Anonymous]

I would pursue it.. if it was inthe contract that you would get the papers.. then do so!

[imported_amber]

It's the same in the UK, you pay your money and you want what is yours at the end of the day. GO FOR IT :wink:
We have problems here with top breeders, HAVE THEY sold the best pup and don't want you to do anything with that babe, go for it kid, it's worth a try, your in the best business :wink:
good luck let us know how you go :wink:

[JudyHoffman]

This is from the AKC site:

If you are buying a dog that is supposed to be registerable with the AKC you should realize it is your responsibility to obtain complete identification of the dog or you should not buy the dog. Failure to get AKC "registration papers" causes more grief for buyers of pure-bred registerable dogs than any other problem except sickness. It has long been common practice to explain the inability saying "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet." The essence of this and similar excuses is that because the American Kennel Club is at fault, papers are not available. The fact is that the processing of any AKC registration item takes approximately three weeks. If a breeder is doing his paperwork in a regular, careful manner, there is ample time to obtain the necessary "papers" from AKC prior to sale of any puppy. When "papers" are not available at the time of delivery, it is a red-flag warning sign to exercise extreme caution.

Also, I think you are misunderstanding what "limited" registration means via the AKC website:

Limited Registration
Limited Registration means that the dog is registered but no litters produced by that dog are eligible for registration.

Chapter 3, Section 4A of the AKC's Rules Applying to Registration & Discipline states the following: "Limited Registration may be requested for a dog when application for individual registration of the dog is submitted, provided the application, together with a request for such limitation, is filed by the owner(s) of the litter at birth.

No offspring of a dog for which Limited Registration has been granted is eligible for registration. Each registration certificate for such dog shall carry notice of the limitation, and the limitation shall continue, regardless of any change of ownership, unless and until the owner(s) of the litter at birth shall apply to AKC for removal of the limitation."

A dog registered with an AKC Limited Registration shall be ineligible to be entered in a breed competition in a licensed or member dog show. It is eligible, however, to be entered in any other licensed or member event. These events include: Obedience, Tracking, Field Trials, Hunting Tests, Herding, Lure Coursing, Agility and Earthdog.

Limited Registration is determined by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) check the Limited Registration box on the AKC registration application (blue form) rather than the Full Registration box. A litter owner must confirm the choice by signing in the signature box provided on the form. If the litter is co-owned, the owner and co-owner must sign individually.

Limited Registration certificates are white with an orange border; the Full Registration certificate is white with a purple border.

Limited Registration can be changed to Full Registration only by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) will need to obtain the Application for Removal of Limited Registration of an AKC-Registered Dog (form AXLTDR). That form will then need to be completed and sent to our Raleigh address with a $25.00 processing fee. After processing, we will send a Full Registration certificate to the dog's owner.

Note: You can download the application from our website. The application is in .pdf format and requires the use of Adobe's Acrobat Reader to view the application. Adobe's Acrobat Reader can be obtained free of charge from www.adobe.com.

Limited Registration helps breeders protect their breeding programs. If breeders do not want puppies used for breeding purposes, they can request the Limited Registration option for those puppies.

The American Kennel Club does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of selling purebred dogs and, therefore, has no control over the business practices of those involved in such transactions. Membership in The American Kennel Club is comprised of independent dog clubs located throughout the United States. No individual persons are members of the AKC.

The AKC will not become involved in disputes concerning 'full' or 'limited' registration of a dog. These disputes must be resolved by the parties involved in the sale of the dog. The only exception to this is in cases where there is a contract, signed by all parties involved and made at the time of the dog sale, that stipulates the registration status. In those cases, AKC will initiate an inquiry on the matter. It seems you have to deal with the breeder directly without AKC intervention unless you have a contract signed stipulating this was a sale with a Limited Registration. All of my contracts are quite specific the type of registration I give with the puppies I breed.

Essentially, limited registration means that if you breed this dog, it's puppies CANNOT be AKC registered or shown in Conformation events. Neutering really has no bearing on a Limited Registration.

I do not think it was fully explained to you why the dog was sold on a limited registration.

If the dog is more than 6 months right now, there is a fine to pay for the person or breeder that has waited too long to register the dogs.

I would call the breeder again and ask for the papers or call directly to the AKC to get papers and register him yourself. However, you will need sire and dam information, litter # etc.

How old is Miles?

[Carolk9s]

I don't think Ferky1 has misunderstood the Limited Registration issue, I did not see in his post that he wanted anything other than what he was promised when Miles was purchases. Miles has been neutered so there will be no breeding anyway.
Ferky1, you are not asking about getting Full registration are you? Still want the Limited you were promised?

[ferky1]

Thanks for the very detailed reply Judy. Miles is now 7 months old and we do have a signed contract specifying the 'limited registration.' My concern was not that I wasn't right on this matter, I just didn't know if it was something that I should pursue. Now I see that this is a common practice by breeders whereas I thought it was simply a meaningless oversight. At this point, regardless of how happy we are with Miles, I am going to pursue the matter.

Interestingly, this passage: 'It has long been common practice to explain the inability saying "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet."' is exactly what my breeder used as her excuse for the first three months of our ownership of Miles. 3 weeks ago that excuse was changed to 'we have everything now and it just went out into the mail.'

The breeder's 120 day window (under New Jersey law) expires in 9 days. I will continue to leave voicemails and try to amicably rectify the situation for a few more days, then I will absolutely hit her and the AKC with the letter. Hopefully that will convince the breeder to make everything right.

[edit: While it is true that I incorrectly believed that limited registration meant that Miles' could only be registered once he was neutered, it does not matter to me because I never intended to breed him anyway (and if I had wanted to breed him, it would be my fault for not fully researching the essence of 'full' versus 'limited' registration). Of course now that's a moot point because he is neutered. Regardless, I do not desire full registration, just the limited registration that I was promised]

[JudyHoffman]

If you have a contract that states clearly that Miles was sold on a limited registration, write to the AKC and send along a copy of the contract (hopefully with your signature and the breeders signature) call the AKC and talk to them about it. They state above that they will do something if that occurs. Breeders hate to have the AKC sicced on them, it's a very serious problem when the AKC calls you ...... sort of like the IRS calling to conduct an audit of your finances :P

I think the statute you are referring to is for "pet stores only" not breeders who breed the occasion litter (1 a year).

Carol, I did not see where Miles is neutered. If that is the case, which I still did not read, then I would pursue getting a full registration. There is no reason for a neutered/spayed dog to be under a Limited Registration that I can see.

[JudyHoffman]

ferky1 ...... it does not seem your breeder understands the difference between Full and Limited Registration only.

If I were you, since Miles is neutered, I'd ask for Full Registration. It's no skin off of the breeders nose and certainly none off yours. The breeder has nothing to gain since Miles is neutered by insisting on a Limited Registration.

You're right, it's a moot point now ....... sort of 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another or the glass is half empy or half full. It's all a matter of semantics and how you look at the entire situation.

But back to the subject at hand, yes, get those papers ..... call the AKC, write them and then let your breeder know what you have done. I would bet you have those papers within 5 days after leaving her that message. She was wrong, you are right! It's got nothing to do with money, it's principle and ethics ......

[ferky1]

Judy: can you explain this statement to me. Why? "I would pursue getting a full registration. There is no reason for a neutered/spayed dog to be under a Limited Registration that I can see."

He is definitely neutered now. No doubt about that! :lol:
Also, New Jersey's Pet Protection Act refers to 'pet dealers.' Interestingly, 'pet dealers' are defined as any person who offers or sells more than 5 dogs or cats per year. I have no doubt that Miles' breeder fits that description.

[edit - thanks Judy. it looks like we simultaneously posted]

[JudyHoffman]

Judy: can you explain this statement to me. Why? "I would pursue getting a full registration. There is no reason for a neutered/spayed dog to be under a Limited Registration that I can see."

OK ..... I'll try, but maybe other breeders here can pitch in also.

A Limited Registration, the way I understand it, protects the breeders and hopefully prevents unwanted breedings or BY breeders from breeding their dogs. In the event a breeder sold a dog to a puppy miller unknowingly on a Full Registration, that person could breed that dog over and over and sell them to pet stores as AKC registered. A limited registration would in fact prevent any offspring from being AKC registered. Many people think that AKC registrations on dogs is the "cream of the crop" and the AKC will tell you it virtually means nothing.

Most breeders will only sell on a limited registration because they "may
want to breed the dog at a later time maybe after health clearances or prevent the buyer from breeding the dog period.

Since Miles is fixed, the Limited Registration is moot, as you say. You should get a Full Registration now ........ the breeder has nothing at stake and her "breeding lines" are "safe" (if you will) because Miles cannot pass on his genetics to offspring because he is neutered ......... good for you by the way!

[ferky1]

Thanks again Judy. After your post, and reviewing the AKC rules, I now see that I purchased Miles with a contract for limited registration WITH a neuter provision (I orginally thought that the neuter clause was part of the limited registration). Maybe it's the breeder that doesn't fully understand the essence of limited registration because, according to your description, there is no reason to only offer limited registration if you are agreeing to neuter anyway!

BTW- Miles would like to chime in for a second. He'd like his balls back.

[JudyHoffman]

BTW- Miles would like to chime in for a second. He'd like his balls back.

Just like a man! :D :D :D

It truly does sound to me as if the breeder did not understand the difference between Limited and Full Registration when writing her contracts.

On my puppy contracts, I have them all sold on a Full Registration with a Spay/Neuter clause. I also reimburse 50% of the cost of the neutering ... sort of like an "incentive" to have it done.

Again, my advice is to contact the AKC, THEN call or email the breeder and let her know what you are pursuing. My bet is you'll have those papers very quickly :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

ferky- this is your wife.

FINE. you win. as usual.

[imported_amber]

THANK GOD, AT LAST A MAN HAS ADMITTED DEFEAT, MAKES A CHANGE, BUT THEN WE WOMEN KNOW WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT :beerchug: :chainsaw1: THEY ARE USUALLY :sleeping:
WELL DONE :B-fly:

[JudyHoffman]

I was trying to help honest :wink:

Ferky asked the questions and I tried to be informative and knowledgeable :)

But seriously, registration papers mean different things to different people. I think if you buy a pure bred dog, you are entitled to those papers, irregardless if you want them or not. I gave all puppy registration papers to my buyers, signed by me. They have to send in the papers and register the dog. If they do it, great. If not then they paid a lot of money for a pure-bred dog in my humble opinion.

I did not price my puppies based on their AKC registration. I based their price on the sire and dam's accomplishments and abilities. Any good breeder knows that you barely break even when breeding a litter ...... breeding a litter should always be to better the breed gene pool.