I hope this isnt "inflammatory"....

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"courtnek"']Poodles end up in this situation, and chihauhau's, because people consider them harmless. They're too close to the ground to rip your face off.
In a large, powerful dog, it becomes an issue. A chihahua you could kick
away from you if you had to...a Pit? Not likely....DONT YOU SEE?
[quote]

Not only do Poodles (or any small dog) end up in that situation...people tape them in the attack and send them to "Funniest Videos" and make money, because it's "cute"...Look at the little dog protecting their big, fully capable of defending themselves owner. A Pit bull does that and they are on the front page under the heading "Killer Pit bull see pg. 2".

Neither is right. But it happens.

Great post courtnek and gooeydog!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

sounds like im not the only person learning things and taking notes on this one... thats good.

Okay so is gooey dog the registered pit bull expert? pretty good answers and well put too. I would pose this question, not only to Gooeydog but to the forum:

Its all in how you raise them... how do you explain dogs that are raised the right way and then one day just snap and rip the face off of the kid next door? its happened on more than one occasion and all that can be said is" he/she was such a sweet dog, it never did anything like that before. I dont know what happened."

admittedly the way a dog is raised plays a PART, but if you have a badly bred dog to start with you can only do so much with it. and there are a lot of bad breeders out there. in fact if ou ever do a search on kennels you will find that most are dogs that have no testing, no certification, or anything of the sort anywhere in the pedigree less know done to the parent dogs themselves. they breed because the dog is pretty or because the dog is a certain color, or because the dog is (mean, aggressive, "game"). not because the dog has proven to be a benefit to the breed.

education is a HUGE part of it, but the dogs breeding and the quality of the dog itself are also part of the equation.

[courtnek]

Its all in how you raise them... how do you explain dogs that are raised the right way and then one day just snap and rip the face off of the kid next door? its happened on more than one occasion and all that can be said is" he/she was such a sweet dog, it never did anything like that before. I dont know what happened

Thank you for that question. It goes back to what I was saying about the
completely spoiled Golden/Lab's that dont appear dangerous....until someone doesnt give them their way. They are fine with the famile (SOsweet) because the family allows them to do whatever they want.
No issue there, the dog is Alpha and the family is subordinate and everyone is happy that way. The dog doesnt bite the family members
because no one ever argues with him/her. I'll sleep on the couch, Fido is SOOOO cute laying there on the bed. (You think I'm kidding? I know people who sleep on their couches because the dog wont give up the bed...
they thought it was "cute" at first...now they're afraid of the dog cuz it shows teeth when they try to get it off the bed)

This Alpha dog then comes in contact with a child, who shows fear, or
doesnt give the dog the toy he's playing with, and the dog attacks because
he's Alpha and therefore everyone is required to obey HIM....

It's a horrible situation. And most people dont even realize they are doing it, because the dont understand the way dogs think. Children and
dogs are a bad combo without an Alpha presence around (more Alpha then the dog at least!!!) because children wave their arms, have high squeaky voices, and are stubborn as a general rule....
The dog sees this as disobedience, and retaliates....


Does that help you?

[courtnek]

yea, I agree. But if the people dont understand the way dogs think, they
end up in these situations. I had to take a control stick to my friends house, round up her Chocolate Lab who wouldnt give her her bed back, and retrain him (and her) in the pack rules. Without the control stick, I am CERTAIN Roscoe would have bitten me, altho he's seen me many times before and always been friendly. But I was taking over his turf, and he was pissed....I was kicking him off the throne, and putting Therese
in his place, and he wasnt happy about it. He was so far gone he required
THREE WEEKS of being leashed to her whenever she was home, crated during the day (altho he's 5 years old) and LOCKED out of the bedroom at all times. All because she let him have his way, and he took over. She didnt know any better. It's a very common mistake with first time dog owners....

I am happy to say Roscoe is now a demoted, obedient dog. She can let him sit on the bed with her when she wants to, but when she says OFF
that's it. He's OFF....I found it pretty funny that she demoted him saying
"I'll call Katy if you dont behave" in a stern voice. He is still nice to me,
and wags his tail when he sees me, but he does avert his eyes....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

I certainly agree bad breeding has a lot to do with problem dogs, Pit bulls or otherwise. More and more people are simply throwing dogs together with no regard for the outcome. They are not breeding tested parents, tested in this case meaning temperment, health and titles. Look at so-called rare blue Pit bulls, they are not only not rare (there are hundreds in shelters) but they are riddled with serious health problems, skittish, nervous or other temperment problems. These dogs are only being bred for colour, and money of course.

Blues are just one example. Other people are breeding simply for size, the bigger the better. There is no shortage of kennel/breeders examples who are doing this. They are not checking the temperments or the health of the parents. In some cases they are breeding in other breeds for size, again no regard for the outcome.

I don't think any dog of any breed, simply decides to attack anyone..their owner or a stranger. I think there are signs that lead up to the attack. It's up to us to see them and correct them accordingly...sadly though some people just are not dog smart, some people do not care or are just in over their heads. That's when accidents happen.

My friend has a black Lab, Zack who is a great dog..but Zack is beyond spoiled. He has complete control over his house, his owners. When he was a pup he was baby, not given a lot training. His owners fed him first, when he was little they would try to take away his bowl and he would growl..his owners thought "oh he must just be hungry" so they gave him his bowl back or just left it. He kept this up, and it grew into serve food aggression. He also did this with his toys. And then he moved on his favorite spot on his Dad's chair...they thought it was cute. It was, but enough was enough..get him down..they didn't of course. And he learned from the past that growling got him what he wanted.

So he growled. When his Dad had enough he went to move Zack and Zack snapped at him. His Dad passed it off as Zacky being grumpy..and left him on the chair. Learnt behaviour. Now Zack knows snapping also gets his own way..and you can see where this story is leading. To cut it short, Zack's parents kid, had a baby. And Zack was always GREAT with the baby, until the baby turned into a toddler. The mom thought Zack would know better, but he didnt and he bit the kid when she climbed into his sit while he was in it.

Did Zack do anything wrong? To his owners of course he did, they wanted to put him to sleep. They and nearly everyone else thought "OMG how could Zack do this? He has never done anything like this...." But he had.

[courtnek]

Thank you Pouty - that's been my whole point - there is no such thing as the dog who "suddenly" goes crazy (with the exception of disease or neurological disorder) They have had these characteristics for a long time; their owners ignored them or didnt recognize them as being a problem.

A true-to-life point. I am Alpha here, I require my dogs to obey. period.
I let Freebee and Laurel out, they were playing in the yard. They started barking, baying and making a ruckus about something. I trust my dogs instincts, so I checked. There was someone walking a dog close to the yard (in fact, letting it POOP in my front yard, we had a discussion about that!) and I made her clean it up and leave, then went to the backyard to let my dogs in (it's a worknight, people need to relax and dont want to hear dogs yapping in the yards all night) Freebee came back, she knows that when I say IN that means NOW! Laurel is new here, and continued to
bay at the fence. I looked at Freebee and said "Go get Laurel"
She went around the corner, and I heard a low, short growl, and Laurel came back with her. They both came in, no questions asked....

This is how the Alpha would control the pack - dont get involved if you can get an underling to do it for you... Freebee knows I mean business, and Laurel is learning that Freebee will discipline if I tell her to...

Laurel is very intelligent, and has put stuff off on me that i never would have imagined, like acting afraid so I pay extra attention to her...

Once realized, I put a stop to that, and she's better behaved. But it's better for me, and her, if Freebee teaches her the ropes. They respond so well to pack rules that I let them work it out. I am ALPHA. Do what I say....

[gooeydog]

Its all in how you raise them... how do you explain dogs that are raised the right way and then one day just snap and rip the face off of the kid next door? its happened on more than one occasion and all that can be said is" he/she was such a sweet dog, it never did anything like that before. I dont know what happened."

It's not "all in how you raise them", you're right about that. There are dog dogs out there that are unstable, that are that way because of something in their genetics. This can happen even in well bred lines of dogs. These bad dogs occur in every breed. Dogs that, no matter how loved, how well socialized, how well-brought up, will still be unstable.

The "he/she never did anything like that before" is a common line. The people who owned the lab x that tried to eat my hand said that after I managed to free myself, then tried to say I must have done something to provoke him. This was a dog that growled even at THEM if they tried to make him do something he didn't want to do. He was an unstable dog if I've ever seen one, and still is an accident waiting to happen. Often people accept things like that (the growling, or snapping over food, etc) as their dog's "quirks", they get so used to it that they don't even realize the dog is being threatening. Or they may be truly ignorant to dog "language", and simply not recognize signs that a dog is giving. It's easy for dog people to forget that not everyone knows how to read a dog.

Another thing to consider is how often the dogs that attack are really an integrated part of a family... more often than not, they're kept outside, or shut in one part of the house.... what chance is there for the people living with them to really get to know them and how they are? How do these people really know whether or not their dog has ever "done that before" or not?

The last point to consider in these cases has more to do with people than it does with dogs. Owner liability. In today's world, where people can be sued for dog bites, or even go to jail if the bite is serious enough, people aren't going to be so quick to admit that they KNEW their dog was unstable. It's easy enough to play it off with a simple "we never knew he was capable of that" in hopes that the victim, their lawyer, and courts will believe that the dog just "snapped". I think we all saw this with the San Francisco attack case. Both dogs had a history with AC, and reports had been filed before, but the owners still insisted that they had no idea the dogs would act that way. Of course, those particular owners were complete nutcases anyway, but I'm sure they're not the only ones out there :-?

That's just a few of the ways you could end up with a dog that had "never done anything like that before" attacking someone, though there are others (both legitimate and not).

You are also right about the situation with pit bulls and breeding right now. There are far too many irresponsible breeders out there pumping out pups with no reguard to health and/or temperament. The problem with regulating them is the same as with irresponsible owners. You can put out all the restrictions you want, but bottom line is that if they want to breed, they'll move their operation underground and breed away. Again, only responsible breeders will be punished, and without them, the breed will only go downhill faster.

Education CAN help here also. Let people know the dangers of buying dogs (not only pit bulls) from BYBs, or from unknown lineage, untested parents, etc. Eventually the message will get around a bit, and people will smarten up, then there will be less support for the BYBs. Couple that with a "neighborhood watch" type education program where people can learn to identify potentially dangerous dogs, and you'll have much more luck weeding out bad dogs and owners before they can overgrow the rest of the garden. Of course, enforcing existing laws would be a huge help in this effort as well, and I also think that people with a record of owning aggressive dogs (obviously they're doing something wrong) or abusing pets should be banned from ownership. The government has more important things on their minds though than keeping a couple people a year from getting killed by dogs, sadly.

[Rosebud]

:klacz: :klacz: :klacz:

Well said goo:

Education CAN help here also. Let people know the dangers of buying dogs (not only pit bulls) from BYBs, or from unknown lineage, untested parents, etc. Eventually the message will get around a bit, and people will smarten up, then there will be less support for the BYBs. Couple that with a "neighborhood watch" type education program where people can learn to identify potentially dangerous dogs, and you'll have much more luck weeding out bad dogs and owners before they can overgrow the rest of the garden. Of course, enforcing existing laws would be a huge help in this effort as well, and I also think that people with a record of owning aggressive dogs (obviously they're doing something wrong) or abusing pets should be banned from ownership.

:angel:

[Guest Anonymous]

great post and tons of info... i dont know where i am going to store it all. But from what i have gathered here i have two main points:
1. as far as the dogs bad breeding, training(or lack of), and bad owners, are the main contributors to dog attacks by pit bulls.
2. as far as BSL is wont work, it one punishes the law-abbiding people which arent the ones with the problems dogs anyway. enforceing the laws that are already there is about the best they can do?

sound about right... any other major points that should be brought up in a SERIOUS pit bull debate?

[Sanvean]

Well, you could discuss some of the famous and/or heroic pit bulls. There are some good articles here:

http://www.pitbullpress.com/ARTICLES/ARTICLES.HOME.html

[courtnek]

as far as enforcing the existing laws, I would like to add another.
A lot of the shelters diagnose dogs, and put up flags about adopting them.
Dog needs leash training, is slightly food aggressive, wont respond to recall, etc.

in their web page they will have a requirement that the dog be taken in for formal training. This is because they have been unable to train the dog themselves (something they try hard to do) and realize that this dog needs a pro.

In the case of potentially dangerous dogs, I believe formal training by a
certified and proven trainer is a REQUIREMENT.....NOT an option....

Breeders will not require that, since mostly they deal with puppies, unless they are extremely vigilant about the kinds of dogs they breed. The better ones will always suggest formal training; very few of them require it.

I think the law should require it with any potentially dangerous dog.
Sad state of things, but necessary. And I think we would find that this would put off a lot of new owners from getting the dog. Too much work, dont want to be bothered. I'll look for a different breed of dog. Of course,
any breed can become dangerous if not trained properly, but some are less likely to. This is NOT a GOOD solution, the good solution would be for people to research their dog before getting it, but that cant be enforced...

I think a breeder application is necessary too. Is this your first dog?
These are the dogs needs and characteristics, can you provide for them? etc....

Do I live in a perfect world? no....but I think in a lot of cases this would help....

[DogPaddle]

I would just like to say that; it is good to gather more info before passing judgement, and that is what pit-curios claims to be doing, I would think that most pit-lovers here welcome that opportunity - to debunk harmful myths etc.
For my own opinion.
On one hand:
1. "pit bulls" are very powerful dogs
2. they are amazingly tenacious
3. a cdc study does indicate they are responsible for more fatal attacks than other breeds but they do not differentiate between: american bulldog, am staff, staff bull terrier, boxers?, english bulldogs etc and crosses, this may inflate the numbers somewhat
4. they are one of the breeds favoured by unsavoury sorts who do nothing good for the breed
5. they have a tendency to develop reservation/aggresion/aloofness with other dogs
6. they have high prey drive, usually focused on smaller animals or challenging dogs
7. many people are unfortunately breeding these dogs with conflict and/or dog aggression in mind
On the other:
1. They are cute.
2. They are generally very well tempered around people, although, as with all dogs, should not be left unattended with small children etc.
3. They are amongst the most obedient and tractable of the terrier breeds.
4. They, if raise/bred correctly, live for praise.
5. They make excellent companions for the active, adventuring owner.
6. They do have an unfair reputation.
7. The CDC study indicates that "pit bulls" in all there incarnations are responsible for fatal attacks , which is less than
8. They really are cute.

I don't think the above warrents the destruction of the breed. I know I would like to see much more careful screening of prospective owners and more careful planning for breeding. I definately agree a better enforcement of current laws would be most helpful - many problems with all dog breeds could be avoided by proper enforcement of leash laws and bans on dog ownership for people who are convicted of dogfighting, neglect, abuse etc.