Dog bite = automatic death sentence?

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm just curious about the collective thoughts on this here. I already know that a lot of people believe that ANY dog who bites in ANY circumstance should be PTS, but I tend not to fall into an all or nothing mindset. That said...

We had an incidence tonight. My last foster, a Lhasa Apso, bit a 10 year old kid in the face (the kid just happens to be my younger sister). The bite itself wasn't a bad one, but it did leave a small puncture, some scratching and a big bruise on her face. Here's the scenario... My sister has always thought it was funny to pull a dog into her face and "rough 'em up" until they're snarling and snapping. She thinks the growling and snapping is cute. She KNOWS, or at least has been told repeatedly, not to do this with ANY dog. She thought it was just lip service and never took it seriously. She says she is "just playing" with them when she does this. Anyway, he nailed her. Also, she wasn't alone with the dog. Her mom was with her when the "play" began and Mom had just opened her mouth to tell her again NOT to "play" with him that way when it happened.

So what would you do? Who do you believe is at fault? Am I at fault for placing him there, is the kid at least partially responsible for her actions (lack of education was not a factor as she has been taught all her life how to behave around dogs), is Mom at fault for not intervening sooner, or does the dog need further "rehabilitation?" Would you just automatically have him PTS? Truthfully, I'm not even considering it at this point, but I'm just curious as to how many people would. He is neutered and is not even a year old yet (anyone remember Devin?... whoo, what a time we've had with him!).

I have offered to take him back, but they are not ready for that. Though Mom regrets that it happened, she feels it was a valuable lesson and perhaps the young 'un will NOW realize that there is a proper way to (and not to) handle dogs. If I take him back, he will likely just remain with me permanently. The controversial part of this whole thing is that I tend to agree with Mom... this kid is (IMO) responsible for her own consequences. If she were a toddler, I'd feel differently, but she is a bright, otherwise responsible child whose actions brought about the consequences. I've seen debates on other forums (holy moly, were they bad) where some people believe NO child of ANY age is responsible for their actions. I liken what she did to a kid standing at a fence line throwing rocks and sticks at a dog. To me, it's all intentionally antagonizing and she has the basic common sense to know better, whether she exercised it or not.

Honest opinions, please (note that "honest opinions" does not translate into blatant, brutal attacks... please disagree, if you must, without being disagreeable).

HF

[mydogroxy]

i'm going to agree with kiwi. a ten year old should have better sense than to torment a dog. the poor dog was just protecting itself, not acting out of aggression. i don't think this is a case where it should be pts.

[courtnek]

Though Mom regrets that it happened, she feels it was a valuable lesson and perhaps the young 'un will NOW realize that there is a proper way to (and not to) handle dogs.

I think mom (and you) are right. Revving a dog up and not expecting consequenses causes these issues. They are pack animals, after all...

and the revving up is what caused Freebee to be so anti-dog and un-people socialized.....my ex is responsble for THAT....

[Guest Anonymous]

The dog did exactly what your sister asked him to do, which is what any dog would do under the circumstances! I certainly don't believe the dog should be put to sleep. If you are going to foster dogs, I would highly recommend that your sister not be allowed to be around them.

[JackieMaya]

Sorry, the last post was mine. I thought I was logged in.

[Malamum]

I agree with the others. Devin definitley does not deserve to be put to sleep and since it is all within the family there shouldn't be any external pressure to do so.

IMO, 10 years old is old enough to understand that dogs can bite and if you do something that causes a dog distress then there is a good chance that you will be bitten.

HF, since joining Dogo I have learnt a lot from your posts and think that even if you impart just a little bit of that knowledge to your sister she will be much better off and so will all the dogs she comes in contact with.

[Horsefeathers!]

Malamum, thanks for the kind words. :oops:

Just to clarify, li'l sis (25 years younger than me... we share the same father) and her mom live in a different household. After I placed Devin the first time and it didn't work out (remember, he ran away and was missing for two days), they decided to take him. I was kind of hesitant because I am fully aware that Devin is a brat and can be snappy if he's antagonized. I do not believe him to be beyond hope (he's still a puppy) and he had responded marvelously to socialization and training. I had really worked with him on that and li'l sis's mom was doing wonderfully with him as well. Also, in her defense, li'l sis, I think, wasn't INTENTIONALLY being mean. Well, I guess in a way she was, but it's hard to explain what I mean. I believe that when she does these things, she thinks the dog is having as much fun as she is. I believe she thinks they're playing back. She had never been bitten before, so never really took the threat of being bitten seriously. She is a bit of a brat, herself, and has had to learn many other life lessons the hard way... the kind of kid who actually has to touch the stove to know it's hot rather than take your word for it. The good thing in all of this is that my sister is extremely remorseful. I suppose that's a good thing. I have always fussed at her about the way she wants to rough house with these dogs. The more the dog reacts, the more "fun" she thinks it is and I believe she really thought the dogs were playing back. I believe now she'll rethink that. In hindsight, I'm thinking it may have been a mistake to agree to place Devin there, knowing his behavioral problems and knowing my sister's knack for being aggravating, but we had sat down with her and talked to her about these concerns. She agreed to be responsible. Maybe I should have just taken the "kids will be kids" attitude and kept him with me, but she always complains that I don't trust her (well, gee, ya think??). I guess what really bugs me is that I was kind of worried about something like this happening and it did and now I'm feeling guilty. :oops: :-?

This kid has more insight into dog behavior and handling than most kids her age. She has not only helped me care for mine in the past and grown up around them her entire life, but she started working summers with me in my grooming salon when she was six years old! She KNOWS! That's what makes it so frustrating for me. If I could just pin it on ignorance, it would be easier. That's what makes me want to just take her down behind the woodshed and smack her around (ok, I wouldn't, but I can bitch at her about it).

Anyway, I'm not seriously considering putting Devin down. I would take him back and keep him, myself, first. I was just wondering how many people WOULD consider putting him to sleep in this circumstance. I know there are those people who believe ANY dog who bites for ANY reason should be put down.

[Guest Anonymous]

i think you should buy your sister the book "the other end of the leash" by patricia mcconnell.

the dog had no fault in this.

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree with everyone here, that your sister is old enough to know better. From everything you have said about her, maybe she just thought that the dog wouldn't bite her..because she does seem to know more about dogs then other kids her age. Does that make any sense? Like it won't happen to me sort of thing.

I certainly would not put Devin to sleep, on less he has a history of biting. But from the few posts that I have read of yours, I can tell that you have a strong handle of proper dog behaviour, and will/know what the right thing to do will be!

It's too bad it happened, but lucky her it wasn't worse. And sadly maybe it will teach her to listen?

If not I am sure Devin will have a great life and home with lots of love with you! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

No, Devin should not be put to sleep. The child was wrong. Mayb Devn shouldn't be with children. Any dog needs to be able to say " Back Off!" I think the child was wrong. Give the dog another chance.

[ellieangel]

There's no way Devin should be put to sleep it was an unfortunate incident which hopefully your sister has learnt from :-?

When Rio had his infected paw one of my kids fell on him when he was asleep and couldn't get off him and he snapped and it caught Joe on the face,not badly but enough to break the skin.
I think EVERY dog has it's breaking point,EVERY dog would bite if you pressed the wrong buttons,in the incident with Rio he was sleeping,so it must have frightened him,add that to the pain from his paw and I just couldn't blame him.

Not every bite incident is cut and dried,how often do we see on shows such as Animal precinct seemingly vicious dogs who end up making wonderful pets as their initial aggressiveness was caused by fear or pain.

[Peng1zrule]

I'm such a cold fish (or a mean b*tch) but I think the kid finally learned a lesson! Aggravating a dog until it feels forced to defend itself with vocalization and snapping is NOT NOT NOT playing. It is agitation training in a crude form, and agitation without actual training is animal cruelty. Especially as she was told repeatedly not to do it and she replied with that age-old catchall, "I'm JUST playing" I hope she walked away a little smarter. I think the dog should be removed from the home to protect the dog from any retaliation from a young child--pinching, kicking, bullying, because of a resentment carried over from the bite.

[imported_Cassie]

I agree, the child is at fault...and now is the best time to discuss this situation with her properly. Tell her that what she was doing was teasing Devin...ask her how she would react if other children at school kept bullying her around and pushing her to the ground etc. ask her if she would defend herself with these other children or if she would just grin and bear it. We being humans have done horrible crimes in the name of justice in our eyes...shoot people who break into our homes, slapped boy friends who have been doing...well, wrong things behind our backs...even we the superior of all species reacts to situations...and not always in a nice way...heck, I don't even know how I would react if some jerk kept sticking his face into mine and teasing me...I think I'd bite him too...and who was that boxer who bite that other boxers ear off??? :lol:
I find adults who have the most hatred for dogs have been children who were possibly bitten and the parents over reacted and did not look at the situation...if a child beleives they were bitten for no reason they will have distrust of dogs which grows into fear...

[behle]

The dog is not to blame....the child should respect the dog's signals that he has had enough. Perhaps the lesson is learned now.

"I'm just playing" is something I hear over and over again when children tease each other and it goes too far. The one who was doing the teasing invariably says, "I was just playing." My reply is, "It's not playing when the other person asks you to stop and you don't. Then it is bullying!" Children need to be taught empathy, it rarely develops naturally.

A dog has no way to defend itself against teasing and torment except to give warning signals and finally, snap, and bite.