Coal's Bitting!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

ACK! This dog is driving me nuts! :drinking:
He's still a puppy, and only does it out of play but it freakin hurts! He just won't stop bitting me!! :evil: I've tried a million and a half methods and they all seem to work at frist, but then by the next day he gets more ditermind and it's just WORSE! I tried Aroura's thing to get him to settle down and everything, but if I do manage to get him to settle down, he'll stand there perfectly settled gnawing on my hand!! I've got bruises everywhere from this dog! So when he's settled, and gnawing on my hand, I tell him not to bite, but of course he still does. So I leave the room. I can't just aviod him all day though! As soon as I come back in the room or whatever then he does it again!
I'm warning now, this thread may become very frustrating because this dog is frustrating the 'ell outa me!
Lately I've been tryin got muzzel him when I get him settled down, and then I praise him lots, and then take the muzzel off and praise him lots unless he bites. I hate using the muzzel as a punishment sort of, but I'm the only one he bites, he's not aggressive, therefore it's not going to be used like it was on Hazel. It seemed to be working yesterday. I put the leash and training collar on him, and walked him around with me when I did my chores around the house, so I could correct him when he was being a little brat, and so I could get a hold of him easy. When he bites me quite often he will run up, bite, then run away. It's all a game to him, and the more frustrated and mad I get, the more fun he seems to have! :drinking: He's still just a puppy, and doing this all out of fun, but it's sure isn't fun for me.
He will do it every now and then with other people, but it's mainly with me. My dad said it's probably because he thinks of me more as a littlermate then an alpha! I've read a lot posted by people, and a lot of good things posted by Courtnek on how to teach him I'm alpha, and I've been trying to do all that (such as get him to wait while I go through door ways and such). But it's all a work in proggress.
Last night I didn't have the muzzel or leash or anything with me, Coal was outside by the fire with mom and dad and i went out there to ask them something. Coal just came a running and he's charge at me and snap at me. Dad would yell at him and he'd back away, then when I went to go back in the house he did it again! There's no way I can catch him when he does that, he's just too quick! Oh is it ever frustrating!
Any suggestions would be great, if I'm missing any info just ask please!
This was discussed before but not quite thouroughly (sp?!) I've tried a lot of things and they don't seem to help...
I'm thinking maybe just a LOT more of the training I'm doing now? I'm still working on the Settle command, but I'm basiclly taking all the knowledge I know about this and figuring out how it will work best with Coal.
thanks in advance!

[imported_Cassie]

First I would like to commend you on your obedience training...it sounds as if Coal is a pretty smart dog! (from reading prior posts) :wink:
If I remember correctly you do not have access to an obedience class with an instructer...do you?
OK, ALL puppies bite...all puppies mouth...its a normal part of growing up...pups learn about bite inhibation...I wouldn't be too worried about your puppy taking over as leader of your house hold. :lol: first what I would do is follow some simple rules...first when your puppy bites you...either yelp out really loud so it sounds as if you have been shot to death...and walk away from coal and ignore him...ignore him for quite awhile...after he starts realizing that the bites are not going to give him attention or initiate play time...then he may start to learn that biting will not give him the attention he is seeking...remember to a dog even bad attention is still...attention...with my dogs I have taught them before they get attention or treats they have to sit down first and behave themselves...then is free lovin time! I have the rule "nothing is free" in my household...when you own 5 dogs and 3 of them are adolescents and wild you have to have some ground rules.
I think the worst I have gone through was when I adopted my Rottweiler she was a biter!...I have also had many dogs in the past which have gone through phases such as this...its called adolescence...horrible time when your dog is testing you to see what they can get away with and to find out what will give them play time...bite run away...master will chase me, or my owner will start yelling...what fun this is...little mischief makers!
Here are some more training procedures:
when you have Coal on lead...have ready "real lemon juice" in a squirt bottle when Coal goes to bite your hand have the bottle ready and squeeze it into his mouth...this is one method we learned in one of our obedience classes...it worked for all the young dogs...especially Labs which are so mouthy! we actually had a border collie/lab mix in our last class...he was wild...the obedience trainer had them walk with the pup around the arena and the pup would jump and mouth etc....the trainer told them to put their foot on the lead so the dog could not move far...cross their arms and look away until the pup settled down...once settled the owner would look at the pup and say "good dog" give treat and proceed to walk again...when it started again...they did the same thing over and over...it takes lots of time...have plenty of patience...don't confuse Coal, confusion can create a monster...always have training practices which you know coal excels in and have plenty of praise, be consistent with your training "success builds confidence; removes confusion" ...praise good behavior. Every one in the house hold should be practising the "nothing is free" sit before eating, sit before getting attention...etc etc...
One more thing I would like to add, Coal should have plenty of bones to chew on...at this stage they really like to chew...alot...it keeps a busy mind active and those jaws directed at some thing other than your hands....show Coal what is appropriate to chew and bite and what is not appropriate...you can teach Coal...."OFF" and "TAKE IT" this ....have a tasty tidbit and make sure Coal sees it, put it under your foot or have it in the palm of your hand...and cover it with your foot or close your hand into a fist...take your foot away so Coal can see it, say "OFF" when Coal goes to lunge at the treat put your foot over and cover it again...keep showing the treat and say "OFF" once Coal finally looks away from the treat, then pick it up in your hand and hold it out in the palm of your hand and say "TAKE IT"...once Coal gets the idea that "OFF" means - do not put mouth on this item, until I tell you its OK....and it may never be OK for you to put this item in your mouth!
Make sure Coal is getting plenty of excercise, has plenty of things to excercise his mind and his mouth...dogs also require lots and lots of attention....get Coal used to your hands as being a "good thing" for rubbing belly's and behind ears and massaging sore muscles...touch and pat coal as often as possible.....give Coal lots of belly rubs...I have found belly rubs to be a pretty good way to calm a really excited dog....put on a movie sit with Coal and make of him.....once he turns around and bites you off he goes to her crate or quiet area....give him about 5 minutes in a time out then go get him ask him to sit give him a treat...and then praise him for being so good at that particular moment....he will catch on that biting will not give her desired attention...but, by sitting or laying down it will...when I do obedience work with my dogs...after their long down I release them with a great big enthusiatic good dogs!!! and then we play...for the Newf's they just like to be petted etc...my Rottie we get into a good game of fetch...with her always bringing back the object and when I say "OFF" she drops it at my feet waiting excitedly for me to throw it again for her to chase....training and fun go hand in hand.
Good luck... Just remember, you have a dog...dogs like doing fun things...if an action stops the attention or the fun stuff...they will soon learn not to do the undesired behaviors...
Good luck! and it takes time....adolescence seems to take forever.... :wink:
keep this in mind
"A successful owner controls valuable resources, and shares them with her dogs generously....appropriate behaviors earn rewards, inappropriate behaviors do not "

[courtnek]

All of the above advice is EXCELLENT. Puppies, especially labs, MOUTH.
He needs things that are really difficult to chew up. I always used rawhide
in the puppy stages but you have to monitor that so they dont swallow big
chunks. He is teething, and he is using you as his teething ring, which
you should NOT allow, ever. Ice works very well for a teething dog.
It cools their gums. and it's hard so it's hard to chew up and it makes them
feel better.

Shara, we have discussed this before. The only other thing I would suggest is putting bitter apple on your hands before greeting Coal, let him taste it once, and see how he reacts. Most (although NOT ALL) dogs hate it.

For Coal, I would find some powdered soup that doesnt have a lot
of preservatives in it, and make beef and chicken ice cubes. Boil it according to the directions, then pour it in an ice cube tray and let it freeze.

When he gets mouthy, tell him NO loud and clear, adn MAKE HIM LIE DOWN. Reward him with one of the ice cubes. This will both help his gums stop hurting, and teach him that non-biting is rewarded.

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't tell you how to fix it. What I can tell you is that you taught him this is how you want to be treated. He is only doing what he gets rewarded for. He could be doing for a number of reasons, but I'm curious if it might be attention, even if it is negative attention. So you need to figure out what you are doing that teaches him to do that, and then change it. He is still a puppy but he is too old to still be biting.

Do you loose your temper with him? Do you get frustrated enough for him to sense it? Tone of voice, volume of voice, etc. I never really understood what happened with Hazel, but could you be letting that effect your relationship with Coal?

[Guest Anonymous]

ACCCK! I just messed up my computer! Wrote this long reply and now I gota do it again! That's so irritating... I'll try my best to remember everything! :evil: :roll:


Cassie, that's really good advice, and I'll print it out for the fam to read too! But the "Off" Confused me even! So I'm sure it'll confuse Coal, because OFF means dont' jump on that! But I use Leave It and Drop It. Leave it means to not touch something, Drop it I use when playing and he brings the toy back...

Court - Bitter Apple isn't sold around here.

About the Teething, I don't know so much about it, but Coal's six months old (I thought 7, but my mom argues 6... we'll see when we get his adoption papers back from the vet when we take him down to be neutered :wink: ) and he's got all his adult teeth in now. That happened so fast! I wanted to try and keep his puppy teeth, and i saw it happening, but couldn't catch any of his teeth. Oh well, I've gotten off track now... Oh yes... is it normal for him to still be teething then??? He's got tones of toys to chew on, really tuff ones (just bought him a new one and he lost it already! It was really good too! Same sort of deal as a Kong, but it floats too, and wasn't as expensive, got it at Walmart. I can't believe he lost it the next day after we bought it!! :roll: ). He loses them a lot though, so I usually buy him a toy every time we go to the pet store.

Okay, this is just a thought, and still needs to be discussed more and everything like that... but you know the saying "A Tired Dog Is a Good Dog"? WELL! Is that ever true! Our friends are up for the weekened and they brought their little BC +ACD Meg here, and those dogs have been having so much fun! Just chasing eachother around the yard, it's just a blast with them both. Don't get me wrong, I play with Coal tones. I train and play with him every day lots, and do agility just about every day. I try SO hard to tire that dog out, but it very rarely happens! I'm pooped WAY long before he is!! I discussed this with a few other dogo membes on MSN and they said it was a great idea! I'm thinkin of getting another dog. I would LOVE having another dog, and it would be so great to have a pal for Coal to play with! He's been SOOOO behaved since Megs been here!!! He was just pooped earlier and he mouthed at my hand and I was like "Coal, no bitting" and he just layed down with his tongue lolling out :lol: I was so proud of him! I brought the "New dog" thing up with my mom and she said "no puppies! I don't want to do the puppy thing again!" which of course, neither do I! LOL I love puppies, but we still got one now! :lol: Megs just a year old, so they were getting along great. I told my mom "We don't have to get a puppy, we could get a young dog! I'm sure there's tones at the SPCA!" and she was like 'yeah.." but then went back to talking to my grandma. I mentioned it to Dad too, but I don't think he was taking me seriously. :roll:
The thing with a new dog... What would I do when I go to school? I figured I could take Coal with me, but I don't know about two dogs... But my mom just LOVES Coal too and has been trying to convince me to leave him home when I move so hmmm... this is stuff I'll have to talk to them about.
So what do you guys think? I think Coal needs a buddy :lol: My Grandma was like "but look at John and Denise (my aunt and uncle) They had Sasha then got another dog for her to play with and every time I talk to them their like 'no get out of this or that'" and i was like "yeah but their dogs are SPOILED! They know no rules!" Which is very true.
But then again there's always... if I'm having so much trouble with one dog, two dogs may make it worse??? But you never know... cuz having Meg around seems to make things better... We'll see, still need to talk to my parents, but I'd like your guy's opinions too!! :D

[Aroura]

If you're having trouble with one dog DON'T bring another one into it!!! Not even in hopes that you might solve the first dogs problems, it is just as likely that the new dog will see what Coal is doing and copy, then you will have twice the problems!!!
When we got Donna Lily was stoked. Yeah they play and wear each other out, but now we have two dogs digging in the garden, two dogs running around crazy when its walk time, two dogs running around the house and back yard destroying things and these two DO HAVE RULES!!! But Lily is just happy to have an accumplice in evil, her behavior isn't any better, the only difference is that now there are two dogs getting up to mischeif, not just one.
As for the teeth, he may have lost all his baby teeth, but the adult teeth are still growing and so his gums will still be sore. You had Hazel on a BARF diet didn't you? Donna is on a BARF/Kibble diet at the mo, and the daily bones does wonders for her teething troubles, she hardly chews a thing. Maybe you could try that with Coal?

[iceyshiver21]

Maybe...if my parents would let me I could send you some bitter apple...compliments of kaite :D....."oh momMMY!!!! where are you i got somthing to ask you!!!"

[imported_Cassie]

I have always had more than one dog at a time for the past 30 years...I have always had one senior who is perfect behavior wise ...my new dogs tend to learn from my older dogs. It's amazing what dogs will pick up from others...as Aroura mentioned nasty habits can be copied...
If you could find a play group for Coal...I do realize you live way out in no man's land...but, there must be freinds near by you could meet daily and get the dogs out for a good run....my Rottie has alot of energy...and even my youngest Newf's cannot wear her out...and in the summer my Newf's are not exercised alot during the day due to the heat...I have freinds who I meet; one has a Lab the other has a Shepherd....they play well with my Rottie...we meet 4 times a week and let our dogs play...its great for us too because we go for a long hike and have a great time.
Good luck to you, and now would be a good time to get Coal used to chewing bones...I give my dogs femur bones...practice your Leave it and Drop it with the bone so Coal will not start guarding the bone...always give the bone back after you have asked Coal to drop it, it just shows Coal that you have control and can take any thing from him whenever you want and the dog realizes he will get it back ...I am sorry I confused you with my version of this excercise...I use "off" as it is one syllable and sounds more like a short bark than "drop it" I use use 2 words for things my dogs like to do....like "take it" what dog doesnt want to take that treat out of your hand...I have always liked my commands to be one word...."no" "down" "sit" "off" etc....its much more understandable for the dog...
Also if you are going to feed raw bones etc...make sure you supervise Coal while chewing...I give my dogs their bones while I am watching TV....they all lay on the floor and get busy chewing....its my relax time and their time to settle and relax as well. I want to add that not all dogs are good chewers...some dogs tend to get overely excited when they get a really yummy bone and can actually rip of particles of the bone which can cause damage to a dogs insides...raw hides can be dangerous as well for over enthusiastic chewers....always supervise and if Coal begins to get too excited...that is the time to take it away...never leave a fresh bone out for more than 2 days...throw it out after the 2 days...they dry out pretty quick.
it is good that you can start Coal out early with raw bones, at a young age they soon learn how to properly chew and that they don't have to eat it all up now..because there are plenty more to come...the more you give bones to your dog it begins to be normal for the dog and not a treat they feel they have to eat right away. Avoid narrow bones like ribs, which even small dogs can get between their back teeth, or any bone that has small pieces that could break off and cause a choking or blockage, don't buy "sterilized" bones which can be extremely brittle, if you want to find a product that is "all natural" besides a fresh bone from you butcher...avoid smoked, flavored, and colored bones...this includes bones that are an unnatural bright white, if a chew bone shows fractures, fissures, or splinters, discard immediately, buy bones which are too large for your dog to fit between his back teeth, buy fresh raw bones from your butcher...ideally, buy bones which have lots of tissue still clinging to them...tearing the tissue off the bones provides great exercise and entertainment for your dog.
I just want to add one last little peices of advice....if Coal runs after you and bites you...please tell family members its probably not a good idea to start yelling at coal....disipline should be one word...no response then corrective action (physical - squirt of lemon juice in the mouth) or by you giving either a short yelp or turn around quickly and give a command to sit...then give Coal a proper greeting once he sits....if Coal just keeps biting and jumping cross your arms stand stock still and look away from him...he will soon learn that in order to get attention its best if he behaves...the reason I brought this up is due to the fact that when Coal sees you....he sees fun....he runs toward you....the people behind him are yelling over and over...to Coal it adds to the excitment as it can sound like barking and joining in the chase....I found this advise to be very helpful when socializing my Rottie...the animal behaviorist I worked for told me many people make the mistake of repeating a command over and over...it should only be said once...if the dog does not respond, then correct it...she said this is also true of a dog which barks constantly...many owners have yelled at their dogs over and over...the dog is probably thinking...great, my owner has joined me at barking at that cat out there. :lol:
Good luck with Coal, and remember he is still just a puppy....6 months is still quite young..give Coal lots of attention and don't banish him from the household....puppies and dogs need to be with the family group...its rough at first as puppies are never easy to deal with....you need to go through the rough times before you get to the good times...and, having a dog secluded from the family group can make the dog that much more excitable when he does get to join you and good behavior will not be at the top of the list of what the dog is thinking...also, when training...I can tell you enjoy having a dog which will do alot of training exercises...keep the training sessions short and sweet and fun...
Have fun

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow Cassie, that large lecture wasn't necissary at all! :lol: I already know everything you said about the bones (as Aroura said, my last dog was on the BARF diet), and all that other stuff, I already know! :lol: Thanks anyway! I know your just trying to help!
The one thing I didn't know what the lemmon juice stuff though, so I'll give it a shot.

I've always had two dogs too, well more like three actually. The older dog, who was Blue, and then we had a younger pup, which didn't learn anything from the older dog to tell you the truth, because it was always running around with out neighbor's dog!! :evil: That neighbor's dog is a menace, and we've been trying forever to get them to keep their dog home. That's why Coal's not allowed to go for walks with Duke and his owner, because my mom doesn't want Coal being around Duke and becoming friends with him, cuz then he'll be off with him all the time.
We've got too much land to fence it all, and I've asked my dad a thousand times to build Coal a kennel, but he said it'll cost too much right now. Coal stays home like a charm though. Even with Meg here running about, they stay in the yard supervised. Coal's only ever left the yard once and that was when Duke came over :evil: I had to call Duke to me to get my puppy back! :drinking:
I would love so much to get another dog... I miss having my gang. Plus I missing having MY dog... Coal's not really my dog. He's supose to be, but he loves people so much and seems to just love to torture me!! Last night I even tried to bring Coal in my room while I watch a movie because he was tired and I could just lay there and bond with him. It was quite the struggle just getting him in my room!!! I have a big cut on the side of my arm now from his claws!! Then when I finally got him in my room he just wanted out, so I decided might as well not torture the poor thing and just let him out.
Sigh... I miss having a dog that was actually mine... sorry for a total off topic :oops: I guess I kina just needed a bit of a vent :oops:

[courtnek]

where in Canada are you? Toronto or Vancouver?

I have friends in both places and I can ship bitter apple via company mail and they in turn can send it to you. I'll pay the shipping and you can reimburse me with a check.

[Guest Anonymous]

I live closer to Vancouver I'm in the middle of BC, Fort St. James... but wouldn't the lemmon juice stuff be easier??

[imported_Cassie]

Hey! I did kinda go into too much detail about the bones!!! :lol:
I have just found in my experience of working with dogs on a daily basis at a Vet clinic....Lab's tend to have a problem with being overly enthusiatic about swallowing things! :o in the past year we have had a Lab mix come in about 15 times for different items it has swallowed and some items we have been able to have pass...but a couple of times the dog required surgery...the funniest time was when the dog finally passed the owners panties...they were bright yellow thongs with a smiley face on them! every one got a laugh over that one...I could never look at the owner with a straight face from that day forward! :lol: many of the Labs that require surgery have swallowed rocks (you wouldn't beleive the size of some of the rocks removed! :o ) and a few have swallowed raw hides and had blockages from them and peices of bones which they swallowed whole.

As for the Lemon juice, what was recommended was the concentrated lemon juice you purchase for putting on fish...it comes in the container that looks like a lemon...it's in a squirt bottle so its perfect for squirting in your dogs mouth...it worked well for all the biters and mouthy dogs in our obedience classes...

[Angelboddy]

Oh, dear shara. :(
Still, having trouble with coal. :(
All the above advice is great.
I have never really had such a big problem with my past dogs or even Nostalgia bitting. :-?
And never has Nostalgia chewed on anything. :o I guess I was just really blessed. :angel:
Hey, want me to clone Nostalgia for you and send her clone. :wink:
Nostalgia can teach coal all about how to be a good baby-dog. :D
Although If they did ever bit, I would clamp down there mouth tell they welped.
I know it sounds a little drastic, but it worked on my pooches. :wink:
They were not as bad as coal though. :(
I have also used that technique that Courtnek described to you.
But I mostly used that on potty trainning.

But what -ever you decide to do, I hope it works out for you and Coal.
Good luck Shara, and keep us posted. :wink:

[rufus]

Cassie - please can you come and live in my house to help with Rufus ???
:lol:

[imported_Cassie]

rufus
You live in the UK huh? I live in Canada....I'll get my Canoe out tomarrow and start paddleing over....hopefully I'll end up on the right shore. :lol: