Tug of war (from the submissive pee'ing post)

[gooeydog]

I just thought this would be an interesting topic to get everyone's thoughts on... here's the post that got me thinking about it (courtnek's post from the thread on submissive pee'ing):

Play tug of war with her two to three times a day (I would suggest 3)
at game 2, let her win and take the tug toy. Then play with her again a few minutes later and win yourself (winning the last round is VERY IMPORTANT) and put the toy up. After a few days, with a few wins,
her confidence should improve. She is acting like pack Omega, you want to
promote her a little bit without getting a big head about it. You DONT want to promote her so much she thinks she's top dog...there is a fine line here.
You must always win the last round, and put the toy up. Dont let her take it to her bed. That causes major dominance issues with dogs.

I don't think that winning at tug is as important as it's made out to be... dogs know when they're strong enough/smart enough to outpower/outsmart a person, and when they're not (in fact, I'd say they're better at judging whether or not they can match someone/thing than most people). I know that when I was younger, I was NO match when playing tug with Goo. I could be hanging on with all my strength, but at only a few pounds more than her, she could have easily won every time. Yet she knew it was only a game, and she would often let me win. I would start to lose my grip, and she'd either pause for me to get a better hold on the toy, or even push it closer, as if trying to help me get it. Even when I'd "lose", she'd run off with the toy, give it the "shake", then run back and lay it on my hands for another round. Even now, if she wanted to, she'd win most of our tug games, yet it's only a game for both of us, and we take turns with our wins. Same with Haley, though she's not as giving with letting me win, and usually gets more caught up in the game, she will willingly give it up when told. Annie, on the other hand, hasn't lost but a few tug games in over 3 years, I keep it that way, and while she is a confident little beast, she's by no means overly dominant with me or any other people. I often have to "out" her three or four times before she's completely let go of the tug, but that's the pretty much the ONLY area where she ever questions my authority. She's not that way with other toys, but she knows that tug is all about keeping her grip on the toy, and as such, she's always reluctant to give it up.

I've also always let our dogs carry their toys for a while after they win at tug, especially Goo, she prances around teasingly, occasionally coming back to nudge me with the toy as if to boast about how she has it and I don't before dodging away again and playbowing. For Annie, it's her obedience/tracking reward... she does what I want, we have a roaring tug game and she gets to carry the tug around afterwards for a while. Sometimes I take the toy back from them after a while, sometimes I let them have it until they forget about it, then pick it up.

I've also seen this same thing I mention in watching the dogs playing amongst themselves... when Goo and Annie play tug, they're not worrying about winning to establish themselves as boss, in fact, they'll banter about back and forth sometimes for 1/2 hr before one actually wins, and with a 58lb dog vs a 10 lb dog, it's obviously not usually even a real contest. That's not to say that Goo's always easy on Annie, she'll give her a few hard shakes during the tug session (once she shook the tug so hard I expected Annie's little pea brain to rattle loose :lol: ), but yet she'll also do goofy things like this:

I've caught both dogs shoving the tug up to their opponent's mouth so they could get a better grip, too.. similar to what Goo would do with me... like, "here, grab this, so we can really play". I've also seen them both abandon their game mid-tug in favor of a mutual "gutting" of their tug toy. Both dogs have won games by their own accord when they were both actually engaged in the game (Goo more often than Annie, but Annie's had her fair share, too), as well as won by their opponent "letting" them win.

I think tug is what you make of it... if you make it into a status contest, it will become one... if you always treat it as a game and/or reward, it will stay one.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have to agree with you. I also want to add that I think it is highly dependent on the dogs personality. Neither one of my dogs is overly dominant. So I can get away with doing things with them that would cause problems with dogs that are overly dominant. I do think there is something to the dominance issues and it is important to establish them. However, I think every dog requires a different degree of "dominance".

As far as tug in our house, we play all the time and they usually win. I have carpal tunnel and can't grip things very well. However, I have witnessed the same behavior as you described when they play together. They also will bring it back to me after getting in a few good bites on it to play again. Both of my dogs are very clear that I am in charge.

Maybe it is all about establishing the difference between play and non-play? Sometimes I think the human can make such a big deal about dominance that they actually make the problem worse. The dog begins to think they are in competition. It's the subtle things that count often more than the obvious. (Completely off topic but I think some people create problems in their dogs, for sympathy or attention, kinda like munchausen syndrome.)

I know of a great article about the submissive urination, I will see if I can find it and put it in that post.

[Carolk9s]

I too have to agree with Goo on this one. I've seen the behaviours she mentioned in my dogs also. I've seen Candy pick up a tug toy and go rub it in Brittanys face to elicit a game.
Like Goo, when Jesse was younger he could literally drag me off the couch if I tried playing tug with him.
Now, I don't think playing tug and letting a submissive dog win now and then is a bad thing, far from it. I have seen Jesse light up just a bit as I let him win most of the time now, he's so much older that I could win most times if I wanted to.

[DogPaddle]

Same here. Sometimes when we have been playing tug for a while and I'm getting bored I just let the tug slip out of my hands as if "oh you won" but Kavik will come right back put the tug back in my hand and tug lighter, this progress with both of us tugging lighter and lighter until it is actually funny. Sometimes I think he is thinking "oh poor pathetic human here let me help you" but he still knows whos alpha.

[mydogroxy]

i have to agree here. roxy and i play tug all the time, sometimes she wins, sometimes i win. for a while she had some dominance issues, but she absolutely knows who's boss. i don't see any harm in it.

[courtnek]

and I agree with all of you - when the two dogs played, they would often
take turns winning.

This is a slightly different approach to the same thought process. It is not a good idea with an overly dominant dog, and it can help with an overly
subissive dog. If the dog knows who's boss and accepts it, then fine. Let them keep the toy. Like was mentioned, it's all a matter of the dogs personality. In this case, I suggested it because the dog is so overly
submissive he pees when people get near. Dogs rarely ever tuck their
tail unless they're afraid. In a pack mentality, letting him win once in
a while should raise his confidence. He expects to lose, so it will be kinda
pleasant for him to win a few rounds. My point in putting the topy up when
done was to make sure the owner has control of the situation, nothing more.

I have used this with great results on people with submissive dogs. Just playing with the pack lead boosts their confidence. Winning boosts it
even more.

:D

[Rosebud]

:-? Now that I have read all of the posts on both threads.

Submissive behaviour regardless of the type of behaviour is a sign of insecurity. The best and safest way to boost a dogs security is in a neutral zone (playing). The dog already knows who is Alpha, if he didn't he wouldn't be exhibiting submissive behavior, playing tug and alternating the winner will only bring the dogs self-confidence and place him higher up in the pack order. This process in itself will help to eliminate the submissive behavior.

When dealing with guarding breeds and building up their self-confidence you should really know what you are doing or you could inadvertantly create a whole new set of serious problems, when dealing with a more relaxed breed this is not necessarily an issue, therefore the purpose of putting the toy up is to discourage the dog from developing a dominance/control issue over the toy.

Now my dogs know who is Alpha and they do not challenge me for that place, they are quite content with me there, they know I "hunt" for their food, that I protect them, (like an RR needs protecting), I give them equal treatment and they respect me and my decisions, the day they question my decision about someone or something is the day I re-evaluate my decision. However I did have to use the tug-play method to build up Sally-Rose's self-confidence and it worked rather successfully. (story on submissive peeing thread).

:angel:

[Malamum]

When researching Alaskan Malamutes before getting Indy I read over and over again not to play tug-o-war, so being a first time owner I didn't.

However I believe that this applies more to the initial training stage rather than for the whole life of the dog. Once pack order has been defined and the dog clearly understands and is settled in its ranking then there shouldn't be an issue with playing tug. Although I do think it depends on the breed and on the personality of the individual dog. With an overly dominant dog I would probably be on the safe side and find different games instead.

I still don

[courtnek]

thank you rosebud, that's what I was trying to get across, unsucsesfully...

In a submissive dog situtation, you have to make them feel safer, less Omega...

BUT since this is a Dobie, you cant make them TOO successful, or you end up with a dominant dog problem...

gotta go even straights, all the way..

[bk_blue]

[quote name='Malamum'] he is very dominant

[Rosebud]

:D

Your welcome Courtnek.

One more thing that I forget to mention was that experienced dog owners would not have to be as concerned about a dominance problem developing as a new or inexperienced owner would.

:angel:

[Marble]

"bk_blue" napisał(a):

[quote name='Malamum'] BK still plays games (no fetch though!), he gets hyper when I try to grab his legs (it's what he used to do to Rinny!). He still goes crazy for this game but he will roll over for me for a belly rub when I say it's over. :angel:

dresden is really into the leg biting thing too :) it's hilarious when she and lady play because they spend most of the time trying to bite each others legs :)

i have a rope toy too but i had to take it away because dresden and lady would get so rough. ady is a lot smaller now, it had gotten to the point where it looked like dresden was going to jerk ladys teeth out......lady already broke one of her front teeth so i get nervous about her jerking on things like that rope.......i still think it would be a really bad idea for me to play tug with dresden, with her being such a pushy brat.......

[bk_blue]

ROFL at Dresden :lol:

to stray off topic... Rinny would go for BK's throat/neck, being a GSD, and BK would go for his legs, being a cattle dog. Instinct is very hard to breed out!! :lol:

[courtnek]

I still don’t play it with Indy as he is very dominant – you know the saying “if you give an inch, they take a mile” well that’s him down to a T

that describes my old malamute mix to a tee as well...

He was mixed with a border collie - and too big for his britches....

:lol:

[DogPaddle]

Courtnek wrote:

that describes my old malamute mix to a tee as well...

He was mixed with a border collie - and too big for his britches....

What an interesting dog he must have been.

Malamum wrote:
[quote]he is very dominant

[Malamum]

I have heard that about Mals. I have been told by owners (who may be biased) that they may not be the best obedience dogs but that's because their smart and are always evaluating just what their place in the pack is and how much they have to do keep the alpha happy enough.

Exactly. Indy is very smart and he picks stuff up very quickly but he won't always blindly obey, I can see him evaluating whether it is worth his while.

You are probably thinking geez what a pain in the ass, why would you want a dog that won't do as it's told all the time, every single time, but if you go back to what they were bred for then this trait is essential. If a musher had a team of dogs and say he tells them to go out over the ice... the dogs need to be able to evaluate whether the ice is safe and if it is continue but if not stay put. The dogs that blindly obeyed and went out over the ice every time just because they were told to probably wouldn't survive to pass that level of obedience on to their offspring.

This is not to say you can't do obedience with them - you just need to work on it a bit harder and from what I have heard from someone else - be prepared to be humbled. She is trying to get an obedience title for one of her boys and some days he is an angel in the ring and does everything to perfection - other times he can play up to the point of embarrassment.

[courtnek]

Quote:
I have heard that about Mals. I have been told by owners (who may be biased) that they may not be the best obedience dogs but that's because their smart and are always evaluating just what their place in the pack is and how much they have to do keep the alpha happy enough.


Exactly. Indy is very smart and he picks stuff up very quickly but he won't always blindly obey, I can see him evaluating whether it is worth his while.

You are probably thinking geez what a pain in the a**, why would you want a dog that won't do as it's told all the time, every single time, but if you go back to what they were bred for then this trait is essential

Exactly. This is a trait also bred into bird dogs, like Labs and Goldens,
and makes them invaluable to the Seeing Eye and Assistance Dog Socities. They call it "Intelligent Disobedience". In a situation where the dog has to evaluate the command for the safety of his master, i.e. the
blind master tells the dog to walk forward, but the dog knows from training that the light has changed and traffic is now against him, so he sits and refuses to move. The master can order till he's blue in the face, the dog will not move until the path forward is clear. The trainers for these animals spend months searching out certain dogs from breeders, kennels and shelters, that show the tendencies of intelligent disobedience. And then it takes years to train them before they can be adopted out as an assistance dog.