American Pitbull Gene ..possible scientic evidence..maybe..

[Guest Anonymous]

This is for all fellow APBT / AST owners - and is very important- please
take the time to read the entire thing! Crossposting permitted to any APBT /
AST/ Anti- BSL lists:

I have been corresponding with Lehr Brisbin, STCA's Delegate to the AKC, on
this matter. Mr. Brisbin has been instrumental in uncovering scientific
proof that refutes a lot of the issues on which BSL's are based, such as
proving that there are no physical differences in jaw mechanisms, etc. His
current issue is DNA - the same technology which has helped us uncover a lot
of health problems, and ultimate proof of ownership, etc, has also made it
possible that our enemies will have a fail-proof way to destroy our dogs. He
spoke about this at STCA's meeting at the recent national specialty.

There are factions looking for a so-called "mean gene" in our dogs, which
supposedly makes them "different' from other breeds. If they find something
that they can label as this, it will be a simple matter to ban them, and
positive ID made thru a simple blood test. They have not achieved this yet,
but they are trying.

I am enclosing a letter which I received a few weeks ago, which sent chills
up my spine when I read it. I faxed it to Lehr Brisbin, and he told me to
immediately let everyone know that they should NOT COOPERATE with this study
until he has a chance to speak to the people involved, and figure out
exactly what the goals and intentions of this study are. It is entirely
possible that their motives are to benefit us, however, once a study like
this is entered into "evidence" in a court case, the opposition has the
right to have access to the database as well. Therefore their guarantee of
confidentiality is meaningless, if this info would be used in a court case.

I don't know if anyone else has received this letter, but please do not
volunteer DNA samples for any purpose (other than what is required for using
artificial insemination, etc) until we are more clear on the intentions of
this study. Lehr Brisbin said the part that makes this very suspicious is
that they require a behavioral history on the dogs whose samples are
submitted.

They say they already have enough samples of ADBA/UKC type dogs, so I don't
know if that means that they were permitted access to UKC's DNA samples, or
what. PeAgGen has already permitted access to AKC AST DNA samples for a
court case, and one of their representatives stated under oath, that "we all
know pit bulls bite more than any other breed" - so it is very scary that
they have our dogs' DNA in their care. (This statement was later retracted,
but the damage was already done.)

The possiblities for a study like this are endless- next they might try to
find the same "microsatellites" for aggression between our breeds and other
breeds like Rotts that are on ban lists, or by AR activists to prove that
the gene pools of purebreds are too small, so breeding them should be
illegal, etc. The letter mentions a goal as being able to give behavioral
counseling- is this by identifying particular markers in the DNA to "prove"
that the dog is aggressive, etc? Very scary.

Make up your own minds, but I am waiting until Dr. Brisbin discusses this
further with the people involved in the study, and gives his
recommendations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
Dept.of Clinical Studies - Philadelphia

Dear American Staffordshire Terrier Breeder:

International Genetic Study in Various Dog Breeds

We are doing an international genetic study on American Staffordshire
terrier and American pit bull dogs. We would like to inform you about this
study and ask if you would consider participating.

As part of a larger study to determine breed relationships genetically, this
study seeks to compare registered American Staffordshire terriers and two or
three different populations of American pit bull dogs. Both the American
Staffordshire terrier and the pit bull are at risk of being banned or
already are banned in several countries in Europe based on laws about
dangerous dog breeds.

While doing this study we will basically compare what we call
microsatellites. Microsatellites are non-coding regions of the genome or the
total DNA. Microsatellites are passed on to offspring (inherited) and they
are usually very polymorphic and therefore suitable for studies like this.
Microsatellites are often used to study diversity between different breeds
of the same species or different species of animals. Studies of
microsatellites are very useful tools to postulate how closely related
different individuals within or between breeds or species are to each other,
e.g. in parentage testing and evolutionary studies.

We already have some information on genetic relationships of other breeds
and several papers are published. There are no publications on Am. Staffs
and pit bull terriers, which probably contributes to the many unfortunate
myths about their behavior.

The laboratory work will be done in a laboratory in Norway where some of our
first work on the canine genome project was done. This laboratory has
extensive experience in working with microsatellites in various dog breeds.
We will need blood samples from each dog, and the sampling will be done in
the US so we can obtain samples from comparable populations for each group
of dogs. The samples will be frozen soon after they are collected and
brought to Norway to the canine genetic laboratory at the Norwegian School
of Veterinary Science. When the sampling is finished DNA will then isolated
and the microsatellite analysis done.

For this study we have set up four groups of dogs:
1. American Staffordshire Terriers - AKC registered
2. Pit Bull Type dog - confiscated (pedigree unknown)
3. Pit Bull Type dog - adopted (pedigree unknown)
4. American Pit Bull Terrier (ADBA/UKC registered )

We would need samples from between 20 and 30 dogs from each group. We
already have the number of dogs we need from group 4, the American Pit Bull
Terrier (ADBA/UKC registered). We still need more dogs from the other
groups. The dogs need to be from at least a few different families or lines,
though some individuals from the same line or family will probably not be a
problem. We would very much like you to help us and participate in the
study. What we need is the following:

* A small amount of blood from the dog, taken as a standard blood sample
from a vein.
*Preferably a behavior history, easily done by filling out a rather short
questionnaire, which we will provide.
*A photocopy of pedigree for all registered dogs, with the dog from which
the sample is taken clearly identified. Regardless, all data will be kept
strictly confidential, although the results will be available to all the
participants upon completion of the study. Owner's or breeder's names can be
deleted if you wish.

It will take a while before the study is completed, but if you would like
any information mean while, please let me know. One of our aims in this
study, in addition to those listed above, is to eventually be able to
provide breeders with genetic and behavioral counseling. Please let us know
if you are interested in this.

If you would like to participate or want more information about the study,
please feel free to contact us, either by email, regular mail, or fax.

Sincerely,
Karen Overall, MA, VMD, PhD
Diplomate ACVB
ABS Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Behavior Clinic

215-898-3347 - phone
215-573-7041 - fax
overallk@v...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lora
Hartagold AmStaffs/APBTs: New pics up!
http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4294431781
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know where we
can find information upon it." -Samuel Johnson
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amstaff-pitbull/message/4306?source=1

[courtnek]

This is a thin-edged sword - on the surface it seems harmless, but you are correct in the feeling that they may not be telling the whole truth. They make it sound in their letter as if they are kinda trying to help the breed, but of course, no one would cooperate if it didnt sound like that.

I would not volunteer any samples until I had more information - maybe from that guy you mentioned, or see the study and it's results. I would not want to contribute to BSL by default....

If they are ever really able to ban the bully breeds completely, there is then nothing to stop them from banning GSD's, Rotties, Dobies, etc...
All of whom make excellent service dogs and police and military workers.

My vote is NO - dont cooerate with this test until/unless we know more about it.

Maybe I'll email these people....

[courtnek]

Well, I investigated Karen overall thru her webiste, and that of a friend. She appears to honestly love animals; has some good advice out on how to introduce a new baby to a pet, how to train and treat dogs, etc.
On the surface she seems like an honest animal lover. However, I could not get her complete email address, and I would like to ask her myself what the purpose of this study is....

[courtnek]

I think I found the email address - this is what I sent

I have read your request for bloodwork on APBT's, mixes and AST's....

I have also studied your web page and others concerning yourself. On the surface, you seem like a decent, animal loving person. However, this study frightens me.

There are TOO MANY PEOPLE who believe that the bully-breeds of all kinds should be banned. Breed specific legislation is going on all over. I AM COMPLETELY
AGAINST IT, I'll let you know that right off the top. Let me tell you my beliefs on this subject, and then you can tell me yours, and why you feel we need to do genetic testing on the bully breeds.

I feel that the majority of animal bites to people, by all breeds, come from the
lack of training and socialization of the animal itself. People just seem seem to
understand that dogs are animals, they are not people. They dont reason the
way that people do. They dont feel that biting is "bad" - they dont know any better.
A lot of these problems (seen first hand by me) is a lack of a stable. "alpha" presence by the human. Many people disagree with this, but bottom line,
dogs are pack animals. Even though domesticated, their instincts are basically
the same as a wolf pack.

Without a strong alpha in the household, the dog may try to become the boss.
I have seen this in both huge dogs, like Newfies, and tiny dogs, like Chihauhau's...
the two next door are a good example.....Personally, I think the two next door and miniature poodles are the worst offenders without a strong alpha, and they are
small.

The biting problem is with the larger, more powerful dogs, who's bites inflict greater
damage than a small dog, and the media hype doesnt help the situation any
I also think a big part of the problem is Breed Standards. Let me give you an example. I have a Lab/German Shorthair Pointer mix. Both breeds are supposedly
good with children, trustworthy, gentle, etc. Would I let my girl loose in a dog park? Absolutely not. She is very dominant, and wont be shut down, and could very easily start or get into a fight with another dominant dog. Does she try to dominate me?
Never. She knows better. I run my household with an iron hand, and she knows that.
But too many people will buy a Lab because of the Breed Standards, and wont show
the proper control, or training, then when someone gets bitten it's the dog's fault and it has to be put down. .

This is where the Pit Bull's and AST's have fallen into this trap. I am 46 years old.
I was around when the German Shepherd was the "bad" dog, then the Rottweiler, then the Doberman Pinscher....the problem was not the dogs, it was the breeders.
A dog gets popular all of a sudden, by a TV show, or a news story, or whatever.
Suddenly, everyone wants one. The sheisty breeders comply with the demand by not
following strict breeding procedures, and the animals are then flawed.

Do you see where I am going with this? Your study frightens me. A lot of people believe there is a "gene" that makes APBT's "vicious"....however, APBT's and the other bully breeds were bred to be animal aggressive (bulls, boars and bears)
but the APBT especially was bred to be people friendly, and the non-people friendly ones were culled from the litters. They could not be dangerous to people, or they couldnt be fought. So where are all these vicious Pit's coming from?

Bad breeding. Bad (or non-existent) training. Cruelty by their owners.
I have asked this question many times before, and never gotten a good answer...

WHY IS THE DOG RESPONSIBLE????

If someone abused a Golden Retriever, the law would be all over them for cruelty to animals. or a lab - or a poodle....

but if it's a Pit, then it's the Pit's fault? Why is that?

I am sorry if I seem harsh, but I dont trust the reasons behind your study. There may
very well be a gene that makes Pit's more aggressive - after all, they were bred to be aggressive - TOWARDS ANIMALS.

What I fear is the discovery of this gene making the stupid people in the world
(mostly the government, who know nothing about it at all) being able to ban
certain breeds of dogs from being owned. What next? No German Shepherds?
No Rottweilers? No Dobermans? (ALL of whom make excellent service dogs, by the way. And the police and military would be lost without them).

If you can prove to me that this is not the direction your study is taking, then perhaps
I will consider it. If not, I will loudly tell everyone I know not to co-operate. And I belong to a number of forums who will spread the word. One of those forums is how I got this information.

As I said, I do not mean to seem harsh, but this is VERY IMPORTANT to me.

You can answer me back at courtnek@wideopenwest.com - Please do.
If I do not receive an answer, I will assume that my worst fears are true, and I will spread the word to not co-operate.

Sincerely,

Katy Courtney
Illinois

waiting for a reply - will let you all know.

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont know about this.... they are trying to locate and identify the "gene" that makes the APBT dog aggressive. Does that even sound right? If they do find it how long before they try to remove it and breed new non-aggressive dogs?

Its just a matter of knowing your dogs limits, with proper training, socialization, and responsible ownership. It really amazes me that they are seen so bad, when there are so many dogs out there that are good, its just stupid to hink the entire breed is bad because of the occasional bad one.

[Guest Anonymous]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

I dont know about this.... they are trying to locate and identify the "gene" that makes the APBT dog aggressive. Does that even sound right? If they do find it how long before they try to remove it and breed new non-aggressive dogs?

Its just a matter of knowing your dogs limits, with proper training, socialization, and responsible ownership. It really amazes me that they are seen so bad, when there are so many dogs out there that are good, its just stupid to hink the entire breed is bad because of the occasional bad one.

Rott'n'Pit: All pitbulls are dog aggressive. They must have a gene that promotes that fighting power. It's just a matter of time before they explode on another dog. Be it while on a leash or your backyard they are going to have a frenzy on a another dog some day. Pits are natural fighters. They were breed to do just that. If a scientist can make a way to remove it, I think that would benefit the breed in the future. Or do you prefer to have a dog aggressive pitbull?

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay so then instead of promoting good owners and proper raising, training, and socialization of the breed it would be better to alter the dogs genetically and make them safe for morons to own?

No, thank you. The dogs natural tendecy is to be dog aggressive not to be a savage vicious beast dragging on the end of the lead trying to kill everything in sight, those are the dogs that have the problem. and with mistreatment any dog is going to show extreme aggression to people or other dogs. Its not like its something that is uncontrollable. I think too much is put into it, if given the oppertunity to fight they will, your job is to not give them the oppertunity. be responsible for your dog! act like you love it and train it. dont put your dog into situations that igve it a chance to prove the media right. keep your dog leashed, dont go places where your dog will interact with other off-lead animals.

So because i dont want to hunt, i i buy a retriever do you think they could get rid of that retrieving gene?

and i dont live on a farm so i dont want my dog to herd, and i have this little problem with my pointer... it keeps staring at stuff could you make it stop that too?

[Guest Anonymous]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Okay so then instead of promoting good owners and proper raising, training, and socialization of the breed it would be better to alter the dogs genetically and make them safe for morons to own?

No, thank you. The dogs natural tendecy is to be dog aggressive not to be a savage vicious beast dragging on the end of the lead trying to kill everything in sight, those are the dogs that have the problem. and with mistreatment any dog is going to show extreme aggression to people or other dogs. Its not like its something that is uncontrollable. I think too much is put into it, if given the oppertunity to fight they will, your job is to not give them the oppertunity. be responsible for your dog! act like you love it and train it. dont put your dog into situations that igve it a chance to prove the media right. keep your dog leashed, dont go places where your dog will interact with other off-lead animals.

So because i dont want to hunt, i i buy a retriever do you think they could get rid of that retrieving gene?

and i dont live on a farm so i dont want my dog to herd, and i have this little problem with my pointer... it keeps staring at stuff could you make it stop that too?

Rot'N'Pit: So if I understand you correctly. You would rather have a Pit with the great chance of being dog aggressive, than to have a Pitty that was not?

Why would anyone want to have a dog that had that fierce potential, when they could have a Pitbull the same as every other except no dog aggression. You must admit a APBT without dog aggression would be great to have. People would begin to have more respect for owners and the breed. Frankly since American Pits are dog assertive and if they could somehow remove or change the "dog Aggression gene" I would appreciate that. In fact I would be proud to own a Pit like that.

[Malamum]

Hey Big Guest, weren't you the one the other day that was saying that if your APBT was dog aggressive it was because it was not trained properly.

The Big Guest wrote.....

SINCE SOME OF YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR PITBULL'S BEHAVIOR THROUGH PROPER TRAINING, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE OUT THERE THAT EXPLOIT THIS MAGNIFCANT DOG'S POWER AND USE IT TO ENDANGER PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS. CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL IS WHAT IS NEEDED HERE. IF YOUR PIT IS DOG AGRESSIVE THEN IT IS UN-TRAINED AND YOU HAVE MADE THE PIT NO BETTER THAN WHAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC TGHINKS ALREADY. YOU HAVE REINFORCED THE SCAR PITS HAVE ON SOCIETY. WHICH PUTS YOUR UN-TRAINED AGRESSIVE PIT IN THE VERY SAME CATAGORY AS THE DRUG DEALER'S PITBULLS IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S EYES. HOW VERY SAD AND TEARFUL FOR THIS WONDERFUL BREED.

Now you are saying it is because of a certain gene.

Do you really have a genuine opinion on this subject or are you just trying to stir trouble..........

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Malamum napisał(a):

Hey Big Guest, weren't you the one the other day that was saying that if your APBT was dog aggressive it was because it was not trained properly.

The Big Guest wrote.....

SINCE SOME OF YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR PITBULL'S BEHAVIOR THROUGH PROPER TRAINING, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE OUT THERE THAT EXPLOIT THIS MAGNIFCANT DOG'S POWER AND USE IT TO ENDANGER PEOPLE AND OTHER DOGS. CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL IS WHAT IS NEEDED HERE. IF YOUR PIT IS DOG AGRESSIVE THEN IT IS UN-TRAINED AND YOU HAVE MADE THE PIT NO BETTER THAN WHAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC TGHINKS ALREADY. YOU HAVE REINFORCED THE SCAR PITS HAVE ON SOCIETY. WHICH PUTS YOUR UN-TRAINED AGRESSIVE PIT IN THE VERY SAME CATAGORY AS THE DRUG DEALER'S PITBULLS IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S EYES. HOW VERY SAD AND TEARFUL FOR THIS WONDERFUL BREED.

Now you are saying it is because of a certain gene.

Do you really have a genuine opinion on this subject or are you just trying to stir trouble..........

I vote for stir up trouble! :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

No BIG GUEST what I am saying is that if you really love your dog and take being a pet owner as serious as you should then the dogs tendencies are not so earth shattering as the media would have you believe. I have never had any trouble with any of my dogs. My vicous pit bull isnt and my killer rottweiler has never. My boys are trained and socialized, no one removed any gene from my dogs. I take the initiaive to know thier limits and make sure that they are never crossed, neither by my doing or the ignorance of some other dog owner. That is my point up until these last few years the APBT was never seen as the vicious killer it is now and they have been the same breed of dog for hundreds of years. The dogs of the past were bred expressly for dog-dog aggression and we didnt have the problems we are now. so now that the dogs are being bred for other things the problems begin to surface, so do i think that by removing a magic gene from them you will change anything... no. its not the dog aggression that has the bully on the ropes. its bad socialization, bad training and worse treatment and that gene is going to be a tad hard to find dont you think?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"The Big Guest"']

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Rott'n'Pit: All pitbulls are dog aggressive. They must have a gene that promotes that fighting power. It's just a matter of time before they explode on another dog. Be it while on a leash or your backyard they are going to have a frenzy on a another dog some day. Pits are natural fighters. They were breed to do just that. If a scientist can make a way to remove it, I think that would benefit the breed in the future. Or do you prefer to have a dog aggressive pitbull?

This is SO much bull! I work in animal rescue. Most of the animals I work with have been abused and/or neglected. Several dogs I have worked with have been pit bulls, similar breeds or mixed pit, and I've known some who completely loved other dogs despite thier past. Beyond that, I've known other pits for thier entire lives, who never so much as growled at another dog.

I'd worry more about miniature poodles...

[Guest Anonymous]

Bravo, Bravo, Brovo!

[Guest Anonymous]

Its not uncommon for game-bred fight-tested dogs to get along with other dogs outside of the pit. I have talked to a few of these game-dog breeders and yes some of them even match thier dogs. and while most are not dog friendly, all dogs are individuals and some run around the yard full of other dogs without incident.

These dogs like to please and if you praise a behavior it gets repeated. Even as a puppy if your dog shows dog aggression and you think its cool and you praise it, it will be repeated even if you dont praise it the second time the dogs will remember the time that you did and keep trying.

Its like letting a dog on the couch, you always say no and its not a problem the one time you let it up, its going to try over andd over to get back up there.

[courtnek]

The dogs of the past were bred expressly for dog-dog aggression and we didnt have the problems we are now. so now that the dogs are being bred for other things the problems begin to surface, so do i think that by removing a magic gene from them you will change anything... no. its not the dog aggression that has the bully on the ropes. its bad socialization, bad training and worse treatment and that gene is going to be a tad hard to find dont you think

and on that note - to find, isolate, and eventually remove the gene from the gene pool could take 50 or 60 years, and a number of generations of dogs bred specifically to "lose" this gene. That's assuming such a gene even exists in the first place. I doubt sincerely that the government
who wants to ban these dogs will wait that long for all of them to become "tame"....They will use the discovery of this gene to ban the dogs once and for all. Then they will probably have GSD's, Rotties and Dobies added to the list, because they all have the rep of vicious untrustworthy
biters, too.....

I'd be interested to find out who is paying for this study.....Uncle Sam, perhaps?

(for the non-USers...Uncle Sam is what we call our Federal Govt...in case you didnt know already)

[gooeydog]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

These dogs like to please and if you praise a behavior it gets repeated. Even as a puppy if your dog shows dog aggression and you think its cool and you praise it, it will be repeated even if you dont praise it the second time the dogs will remember the time that you did and keep trying.

Its like letting a dog on the couch, you always say no and its not a problem the one time you let it up, its going to try over andd over to get back up there.

The problem with that is that you don't have to praise a dog (especially an APBT) for acting dog aggressive in order for it to be rewarding... there are numerous ways it can be rewarding all on its own.

First, pretend for a second that a person walking another dog is the mailman on his mail route, it works the same way; mailman (errrm.... dog/owner) comes up, your dog carries on as he deposits mail in box, mailman leaves. Your dog thinks "Hey, I just barked and carried on and that guy left, I must be real tough!". The same thing can happen with a dog that reacts defensively around other dogs, they carry on, other dog is either led past by owner or leaves, not wanting to be in a fight, your dog thinks they're the biggest badass on the block. That alone is rewarding.... the behavior worked, right?

Or, say your dog is fine with most other dogs, and one day gets into a scrap (either with one of his buddies or with a different dog). Win or lose, he's an APBT, he most likely thought that new "game" was pretty fun. Again, he was rewarded by the situation alone. No need for praise or encouragement from you.

[Guest Anonymous]

Very True, But I still say being a responsible owner is being there so that when your dog does start up you are right there correcting the behavior and showing that... Hey when i act all tough, I get in trouble but when i sit and just let them pass i get praise. then your dog will find your praise much more rewarding then a solid correction.

Territorial aggression is a bit harder to control and to a degree I dont really punish for it. NOw excessive barking is corrected, but a warning bark is permissable. In protection training one of the first theing you teach a dog is to bark at a stranger, with a stare and a good deep bark they are great for turning away a possible intruder. Most dogs hate the mailman just because they are basically waltzing into thier territory and dropping off stuff, and then leaving. Our old mail-lady was always very nice to the dogs and Daz who distrusts everyone would wiggle all over when her truck pulled up because she would talk all baby to him and pat his head.

But any breed of dog can lean aggression with praise, your right about the bully though (of course) but the problem dogs are usually taught that aggression is good, they have those "sssssick him"or "get him" owners that praise and enforce the behaviors.

[gooeydog]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Very True, But I still say being a responsible owner is being there so that when your dog does start up you are right there correcting the behavior and showing that... Hey when i act all tough, I get in trouble but when i sit and just let them pass i get praise. then your dog will find your praise much more rewarding then a solid correction.

If only it were always that easy... not all dogs are so easily persuaded into leaving other dogs alone. For a long time I tried to "correct" Goo into controlling herself around other dogs... the result? A dog who would hold a sit while another dog passed. Most of the time. Then there were the times when she'd seemingly lose all control and fly at the passing dog with such fury it was unbelieveable... she knew she would be corrected (sometimes a leash correction, sometimes verbal, sometimes both), but her desire to get at the other dog was so strong that it overrode even her fear of correction. Immediately afterwards, she'd start shaking in fear from being corrected, knowing that she'd messed up, but that of course didn't stop her from going after the dog in the first place. All I had managed to do was make her even more intense in her attempts (trying to get to the other dog before she was corrected), and make her afraid. She also became sneaky, something that still causes problems today.... she'd stay in her "sit", or "heel", seemingly not even paying attention to the other dog, then fly up in a full fledged lunge... no signs before whatsoever (she now does this with cats, bunnies, and other small prey animals). After a while, I realized that I wasn't doing to fix the problem, gave up on "fixing" her, and worried more about just keeping her out of trouble. The past couple years, I have started working with her again, but still mainly just keep her out of situations where she might react. She can walk past another dog on the street or in a yard without carrying on, and she's fine with our dogs, that's good enough for me.

It's also important to note that she is extremely submissive, and even an angry stare will usually stop her in her tracks if she's doing something she's not supposed to be... which just goes to show HOW intense she was about other dogs that she would risk that type of disapproval from me to get to one.