Another Attacks update, not a good one :(

[abker17]

Abs attacked Cracker today. :( Let me start from last time I updated u all....
Just a couple weeks after my last update, Cracker and Abby played for the first time in several months. I was so happy. :) But still when they are playing, Cracker seems to be the one trying to be dominant. She trys to jump on Abby alot. When they are lying down, if Ab gets up she immediatly gets up also. :-? I don't know what to make of it.
I've had them eating in seperate rooms, and been giving Abby all the 'firsts' But Cracker seems to want to be dominant. :o :x :-? I find this odd. An example is when I go to let them outside, she tries to get infront of Abby at the door.
Today they started to play again, I was at the comp. They had been playing peacefully for a minute, then I heard Abby 'go off' (for lack of a better word) She quickly let go when I yelled at here, and now is confined to the bathroom. Cracker wasn't to shaken, mostly because Ab only had her for a second.
U all have been very helpful on this subject before, so thanks in advance. :wink:

[abker17]

In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, here are the last two posts to refresh your memory.... :lol:
http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=6176&highlight=attacks
http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=6748&highlight=attacks

[courtnek]

Poor you!! Maybe I was wrong about Cracker not wanting to lead (since you said she is very submissive). She appears to have decided she DOES
want to lead....At best guess, I would say stop favoring either of them and let them work it out amongst themselves. Onlyintervene
if a fight is in the making. Other than that, let them decide. In a pack, this is how it would be doneanyway. Snarling, posturing, dont worry about. Leave them alone unless it looks to become a real fight, then intervene.
But ONLY then.

I really hope it all works out.

:D

[abker17]

Thanks Courtnec, will do. :)

[Aroura]

Apparently the old idea that you should feed, pat, play with etc the dominant dog is just that - an old idea.
The new theory is that because dogs have been domesticated for so many years they have lost much of their pack order instincts and should be treated equally.
Lilys trainer came over to talk to me about Lily and see her in her home environment. She also suggested a few exercises I should try with her. Seeing as she is "status seeking" and is mostly aggressive over me she suggested that I get all the dogs and take turns in taking one of them away at a time and playing with them while someone else holds the others on leads, distracting them with treats. This should be done in a random order each time.
Also she suggested letting the dogs inside in random order, making the others wait unil it is "their turn".
I think the key here is to do everything randomly, do not "favour" one over the other and don't let them think either one is of higher rank.
If a fight does occur, get the dog at fault and rouse on it, standing over it and making it back off so you are completely dominated and that they know that what they have done is wrong, then isolate them for a time. If both dogs are at fault do this to both of them.
Keep us posted, and good luck!

[courtnek]

sorry Aurora, but I have to disagree. Dogs are pack animals, even though domesticated, and they have to find their "place" in a household to be comfortable. I agree entirely with letting them work it out amongst themselves, but I would not favor any of them. When Alex was alive, him and Freebee argued constantly about who would be top dog under me.
And yes, there were a few times I had to break them up, just to keep the noise levels down. Alex was male, and thought he should lead, Freebee was here first, and thought she should lead. I let them work it out without intervention unless it got out of control. Alex gave up, plain and simple.
Freebee is very dominant, and would not give up her spot, and he
eventually accepted it. Having worked it out amongst themselves, the rules were set and they both lived with it.

I miss him, alot....

[Aroura]

I got the information from my trainer who has just been to a seminar on dog aggression down in sydney. I wish i could have been there but it was right in the middle of my exams.
I'm not sure about the whole letting them sort it out amoungst themself thing, I guess it depends on what you mean by it. If i were to let Lily and Tess sort it out amoungst themself I'd probably end up with a dead dog and loose an arm in the process. I have to know what triggers their fights and stop it from happening before they even get in the situation where Lily is eying Tessa, because once that happens and a fight does break out unless there is someone with me who knows what they are doing there is no way i can break them up alone, it is simply physically impossible. Last time I was with a friend who didn't jump in STRAIGHT AWAY and Tessa nearly lost an ear.
Favouring Lily because she is obviously the pack leader only makes her worse, as does favouring Tess because she is the older dog, as Lily only wants to fight more if Tessa is consistantly favoured. This is why I am doing these exercises, to teach them that it is OK for the other to be priveleged as they will also be priveliged if they wait their turn.

[Shannon_C]

Abker looking at your previous post. I would advise anyone not to allow there dogs to sleep with them on the bed or in the same room....dominance is a problem in dogs, not just in pedigrees but mongrels too! I feel that dogs have a tendancy of getting there own way if allowed too, this doesn't come from spoiling them but from the owner themselves, dogs can get too attached to there owners and will get in the way if any person or animal tries to come between them.

For example both my dogs Charlie (Bullmastiff) and Penny (Border Collie mix) sleep in the kitchen together, they were sleeping in the same dog bed untill Penny started to rip the cover I put over, she now sleeps in the cage, still in the kitchen. Patch (Westie mix) sleeps in the hall because Penny cannot be trusted to leave him alone vice versa if he were to sleep in the same room as them...plus I know it would be chaotic if they were all together. However allowing them to have there own room is much better than sharing yours with them...occasionally they are allowed in the room but you can see jealousy there with both Charlie and Penny, when one jumps on the bed you can guarantee the other will....now with a large breed like Charlie it is not ideal for them being the boss over another dog, not because of there bite but sheer strengh....holding a Bullmastiff back would be like holding a Lion back.
So my idea would be is to let your dogs sleep in a seperate room with there own water, and toys when you leave and when you go to bed....let the dogs out together when you wake up and return home....all the excitement will be towards you at first, a little fuss is all that is needed for both then in a firm voice say GO AND PLAY or OUTSIDE, if that doesn't work....shout louder, if you see one attacking the other say NO again and encourage the one who started it to play with a ball.
(Feed them in there own rooms at feeding times so they get to know the right way.)
Both mine play together usually hanging on the end of a rope pully or either pulling at each other..Penny growling etc, but Patch isn't allowed as he is an old man now and Penny is quite rough when she starts.
Charlie can handle it and enjoys her being rough with him, but if I see either of them getting carried away...then is the time to STOP and they are told to lie down, works with Charlie but not Penny which I have to be more firm with.
But knowing how to deal with it is much easier than not knowing...my dogs know Im the boss and if I say NO they know I mean NO

Follow these rules and you won't go wrong, the key is not to allow your dogs to do as they please, you have to be firm with them from time to time, this doesn't mean smacking them but a firm NO usually works wonders!

GOOD LUCK

[abker17]

Now I'm not sure what to do. :-?

Like Aroura said, I have to look for the warning signs of a fight and prevent it from happening before it starts, for the saftey of the dogs.
I really believe in pack order amongst dogs, but in my case, I'm not sure if it's gonna happen. I'm sorta leaning towards trying it the way Aroura suggested, and see how it works out.

As for what u suggested Shannon, I think the having each dog have it's own "room" thing sounds like a good idea. The reason I let Abby sleep on my bed was because it helped me get to sleep. If u read my previous threads, u'll see where I explained that. :) I think though, that I'll begin slowly "weaning" Abby off of the bed at night, and eventually out of the room and into her own "room". :) Although she has never showed any dominace over me, I think having each dog in it's own room at night might help settle things.

So, this is what I'll be doing, putting each dog it's room when I go to bed, or when I leave. Varie-ing who is fed first, and who I say hi to first when I get home. Spending equal amount of time with each dog, try too elemanate any jeolusy. Is there any thing wrong with this plan? I'm still open to suggestions, so feel free to tell me. :) If this does not work, then I'm gonna let them work it out amongst themselves, and they can choose who's alpha. Thanks for all the good lucks' I'm gonna need it.......... :wink: :)

[Shannon_C]

Abker I am sure you will see the benefits of doing this, it might not be easy at first has they have never had there own room....so there might be some barking and whining, if this happens either ignore them or say NO....this is what I have always used with my dogs and it does work.
I can leave my dogs in there rooms withour any barking or crying at night or when we leave, we also never make any fuss of them because then they will know we are going out which can encourage dogs to be naughty chewing things etc, instead we reward them with plenty of it when we return.

Given plenty of toys, a clean bowl of fresh water and a clean soft bed should make them happy...leaving a radio on in another room might make them both relax when you go out.

At feeding time...in there own rooms....whoever was there first should only be allowed to eat when you say so. Charlie is the first to eat his even though he was the last one in the house, this is because Penny is very greedy and will finish hers before anyone else has started and tries to steal some of there's, getting her to sit and wait is not easy at times either. However once Charlie has nearly finished his, only then Penny is allowed her food!

If you try this with your dogs they will eventually learn to sit and wait without having to be told...this is showing them that you are top dog..they must always know that they are at the bottom, you above them.
Charlie knows I am his master and that he is below the other two, but literally Patch is top dog over them both, he was here first, Penny is next....she has tried to be above Patch on occasions though but it doesn't work.

GOOD LUCK!