abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Posted June 20, 2003 Abby tried to attack Cracker again. :x Luckily, the minute I yelled at her she stopped, she had barely gotton at Cracker. This is so unfair. Cracker should not have to live her life in fear. U can tell, that every time Cracker walks, she caries her head low, and is constantly looking around to make sure Abby is not around. It makes me so upset. Cracker is always depressed, it seems, she has lots of allergies, and I feel that she is miserable. :cry: I want to make Cracker's life better, she does not diserve this. I can barely get her to walk down the street, she always afraid. She won't play or do anything. When I try to do obediance work with her, and I try to push her into a position she snaps at me. I feel like her life is horrible and I want to make it better. I just don't know how. I have to admit, my relationship is not good with Cracker. I don't know how to handle a dog that has that much fear, of someone hurting her. Any suggestions would be apprieciated. :x :( :-? :cry: Quote
Angelboddy Posted June 20, 2003 Posted June 20, 2003 I know this may sound hard, but maybe you sould consider finding her another home where there are no other dogs and someone can give her the full amount of attention that she might need with no other dogs around. It sounds to me that she is a very timid dog. She probally is intimidate by other dogs and has a security issue. I am sorry that you are going though this, i wish there was more that i could do. Good luck and please let us know how it goes. Quote
abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Author Posted June 20, 2003 First of all, I feel that giving Cracker another home is not the way to solve the problem. She is almost six years old now, and we've had her since she was just a little pup. She is a family pet and I know that I would not be able to give her up, nor would my parents or kid sister. She takes a very long time to warm up to people. I doubt if we could even find a home that would be willing enough to take care of her, because of all her problems, plus the added bills of the allergies. I really want to work through this, while keeping Cracker with us, where she has grown up. Quote
behle Posted June 20, 2003 Posted June 20, 2003 Abker - Have you reached any conclusion about what is "triggering" these attacks? Is there any pattern? Could you record in a little notebook, or on a card you can keep, the circumstances surrounding these events? It may be easier for you to see a pattern if you have a log to study and think about as you think about before you try corrections. Good luck - I do hope you can figure out what is wrong. :cry: Neither dog should have to live in conflict... Quote
abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Author Posted June 20, 2003 Thanks Behle, I think that might help. I will go ahead and tell u the circumstances of the last three attacks. There was one around christmas, we had lots of candy sitting around, and the dogs were upstairs. Cracker had found a sandwich in the trash, that my mom had absent mindedly thrown away. Cracker was obiviously eating the sandwich, when Abby came in and decided she wanted the sandwich. When Cracker would not give it up, they got in a fight. Then, the one that was just a couple of weeks ago, Abby was eating and Cracker got to close, Abby felt that her food was threatened, so she attacked. Most recent attack, the one today, was the most baffeling(sp?) Cracker's allergies had been acting up, so I let Cracker outside on the porch to get some fresh air. When I let Cracker back in, there was no food anywhere nearby. Cracker was just walking into the kitchen, and Abby went for her. I stopped it before anything happened, thank goodness. I will write these down, and hopefully that will help. Thanks a lot. :) Quote
abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Author Posted June 20, 2003 I think you may have to seriously demote Abby to omega dog in your pack...lots of "firsts" for Cracker What do u mean by firsts? I'm not sure I understand... Quote
behle Posted June 20, 2003 Posted June 20, 2003 Hmm...Is going outside on the porch considered "special" or a "treat" by Abby and Cracker? Were you outside on the porch with her or was she by herself? If you were inside with Abby, had you been giving her a lot of attention before Cracker came inside? Don't you just wish you could take a peek into her thoughts and know the answer to this problem? Quote
abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Author Posted June 20, 2003 Okay, I don't think that either dogs consider going out onto the porch to be a treat... I mean they might.... dogs are so complicated sometimes. :roll: Cracker was out there by herself, our porch has railing all around it, and gates so u can get in and out. So I often leave Cracker out there when her allergies act up, because she cannot get out, and I don't have to watch her (our back yard is not fenced and I have to watch Cracker when she is out there off leash) I had not been giving Abby a lot of attention, I was just watching tv. And yes I wish I could just sit down with Abby and say "Why did U attack Cracker?" and have the anwser. :-? Quote
mouseatthebusstop Posted June 20, 2003 Posted June 20, 2003 FIRST MEANS FEED CRACKER FIRST LET CRACKER OUT OF THE DOOR BEFORE ABBIE ECT I WOULD SEPARATE THEM WHEN NO-ONE CAN WATCH THEM Quote
abker17 Posted June 20, 2003 Author Posted June 20, 2003 That's what I was thinking it ment, and actually I already do that, Cracker is fed first, and let through doors first. At least that is something I'm doing right. :) Quote
Marble Posted June 21, 2003 Posted June 21, 2003 regarding her snapping when you push her into postion.......what if you used the treat/lure techniques where you slowly lift a treat just above their head to get them to sit or slowly draw it down to the floor for 'down' etc? maybe if you used a hands off technique like this it would help build her confidence ? it might be worth a try :) Quote
PamelaJ Posted June 21, 2003 Posted June 21, 2003 sorry to hear about your problem Abker... Sorsha is never snappy except when it comes to her favorite treats...but when it comes to something she REALLY likes (a pig ear comes to mind) she will snap at anyone or anything that comes near... since we have gotten a new puppy recently, we have tried everything to show the dogs that we view them as equal...i.e. if one gets to sleep in the bed, they both do... i hope your babies start getting along better...i can imagine it's tough when one seems to fear the other... best wishes Quote
courtnek Posted June 21, 2003 Posted June 21, 2003 you might want to look at this from a different viewpoint. Abby obviously wants to be top dog...she feels it is her place. Cracker is timid, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but not a quality for top dog, either. If you are putting Cracker in the top dog position (eats, first, goes out first, etc) and she is naturally timid, maybe you should rather envourage Abby to be top dog. Change the ladder rungs. Go with me on this for a minute.... In a pack, the stongest, smartest and usually largets (but not always) animal gets to be Alpha. there is a male and a female Alpha. However, the female ALpha is allowed, and will, take down a male beta, even though he's male. It sounds to me like Cracker would be better off as being beta to Abby. The end result will be if Abby feels her place as top dog (below you and your family, of course) is secure, she will most likely stop attacking Cracker. If Cracker is naturally timid, Cracker will take to this role quite nicely. The mistake we make as people is that we feel everyone should be equal....and we extend those feelings to our animals. Sometimes that works. In this case, it's not going to. If Cracker was not timid, he might be able to hold his own, or wouldnt have lost the top position. I would see what happens if you start giving "firsts" to Abby, see if that settles them down. Some people dont want to rule....I think the dust will settle quicker if you let them decide who is boss. They're pretty good at it most of the time. Of course, you have to watch them, so seperating them when alone is a good idea. But when you're there watch them closely without intervening and see who takes the top spot. My money is on Abby. Letting Abby demote Cracker is not a bad thing, trust me. Just dont let them fight seriously. That's when you become Alpha and make them settle. Alex came in here, male, intact, wanting to be King. Freebee put him in his place and in no time at all the dust had settled. She was top dog, and that was it....even though he was male and outweighed her by 15 lbs. I dont know what gender Cracker is, but it works between females too. Quote
abker17 Posted June 21, 2003 Author Posted June 21, 2003 Thanks a lot Courtnec! :D I think that will really help. I'd heard that giving Cracker "firsts" would just make things worse, although that's what I've been doing for some time now. I'll start giving Abby, the "firsts" and I think it should help a lot. Oh, yes, and Cracker is female. I don't think Cracker will mind not being top dog, because I don't think that is very important to her, being that she is so submissive in the first place. I want to point one thing out, that has often confused me. When Abby and Cracker are playing, Abby always rolls over on her tummy for Cracker. :o I find this odd. What do u think? Quote
courtnek Posted June 22, 2003 Posted June 22, 2003 in a fight for the "top spot" - if the one dog gives up the spot to the other, the other will "roll over"...it's a way of saying "I am now in the top spot, but if you'l work with me, we'll get along...." It is hard for a dog to give up the top spot - it's also hard for the new winner to take it. In a packsociety they HAVE to get along - for the good of the pack - and so they givea little when rank changes. I think you'll find that once the role reversal has happened. Abby will be more than willing to accomodate Cracker.. and then they wont fight, and that's the bottom line... :D Quote
abker17 Posted June 22, 2003 Author Posted June 22, 2003 It's okay K! I'd been giving Cracker all the firsts even before u told me it would help. No harm dons, I still love ya! *HUGS* :lol: :D :D :D Quote
courtnek Posted June 22, 2003 Posted June 22, 2003 I remember watching a show about a wolf pack that had to be moved from a park they were in to a new home on a wooded indian reservation. They showed the lives of the wolves from the beginning of meeting and accepting the humans as family members, to actually being drugged and driven to their new home. There was one wolf, definite Omega and bottom of the pile, that became a favorite of the people. He was the son of the alpha, but for whatever reason he was delegated to the bottom. After the pack was moved, the people left them alone for a year or so so they could adjust to their new home without human intervention. When they came back to visit, the pack recognized them immediately and welcomed them back. (!!! that really surprised me!) and they saw that the alpha was now getting up in years and losing strenght, and the Omega had started to plant himself into the alpha position. It was month or so long transition, where the Omega would roll over when the alpha came up to him, but he started leading the pack, running the show, and picked himself a female to be his alpha mate. The male alpha just sorta became a secondary member (although still respected) and let his Omega son rule. The point of this long tale is that the switching of ranks can be painless once it's been decided it's going to happen. Abkers question about rolling over reminded me of that show.... They are amazing creatures. The alpha just knew his time was up, the others knew it too, and the one who worked the hardest for his spot got it, even though he was bottom of the pile at first.... Quote
abker17 Posted June 23, 2003 Author Posted June 23, 2003 That's an interesting story Courtnec. I can sorta relate it to what is happening with my dogs because, Cracker was here first. We found Abby as a stray, and after searching for her owners and turning up nothing, we decided to keep her. We had been considering getting another dog any way, as Cracker was alone most of the day and we thought a fellow dog could be a nice friend for her. :) So when Abby came, Cracker had been alpha. (of the animal part of the family of course) Quote
courtnek Posted June 23, 2003 Posted June 23, 2003 They seem to know, Abker, who would be the best to lead. They need a strong leader in the wolf pack, because without one they will not survive. Even those these are dogs, and get food everyday and shelter, they still respond intinctively to pack rules...Abby deos not feel that Cracker is a good "leader" - she thinks she will be better, and since Cracker is so submissive she is probablt right...Making Cracker "lead" when she doesnt want to is making her nervous and unhappy. I truly believe that Abby should lead, Cracker should be demoted, and I think both dogs will be happier because of it. and that's what you really want - peace in the household. They live in peace quite happily in a pack where the rules have been laid down, and the leader, leads.... :D Quote
abker17 Posted June 23, 2003 Author Posted June 23, 2003 Yes, I think they will be happier too, and that is what everyne wants! :D Hopefully the dust will settle, Abby will take to being leader of the pack(animal part any way) and the dogs can live peaceful lives with one another, which is what I really want. Thanks to everyone who gave me help! :D :D :D Quote
Malamum Posted June 23, 2003 Posted June 23, 2003 Hi Abker17, I have been following along and would really lover to hear how things are going once you swap Abby and Crakcers roles around. I agree with Courtnek, if Abby starts to get stuff first she hopefully won't feel the need to challenge Cracker. Keep us posted. Quote
abker17 Posted June 23, 2003 Author Posted June 23, 2003 I'll make sure to keep everyone updated... :D Quote
Marble Posted June 23, 2003 Posted June 23, 2003 abker17 napisał(a):I'll make sure to keep everyone updated... :D please do, i'm really curious to hear how it turns out too:) Quote
courtnek Posted June 28, 2003 Posted June 28, 2003 How's it going Abker? Has the dust settled yet? :D Quote
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