He tried to attack me.

[StarFox]

I have to agree with Courtnek...I think dogs do have a "pack mantality". I have seen groups of dogs before and the way they interact with one another. And I do belive that dogs do carry many traits from wolves especially the pact mantality. But I also know that doing the 'alpha roll" is very dangerous. My trainer told me that a woman did this to her very large german sheapherd and it bit her in the face very badly, so badly that she had to get plastic surgery to make her look "normal" again. But this was a time when i HAD to do that to Zebra. If I didn't he would have become alpha in our "pact". And No this just did not happen suddenly..he had snapped and growled at us before..ESPECIALLY AT ME! Usually when he does this I clip on his leash and pull him away from whatever he has. But this time my mom decided to get him out. Even though I kept telling her to leave him alone she would not (sometimes I think my parents need more training then Zebra :roll:). Alos in this incident my dad had yelled at him and yes he got defensive and scared. So i belive that this incident he was acting in fear and wanted to be alpha..err if that makes any sense.

Rosebud--Your almost right..Actually I am Alpha--My mom and dad are about equal and are Beta and my brother is next then there is Zebra. I know males are usually the Alpha but in this case I am. I train Zebra and spend most of my time with him.

Like I said in my first post that Zebra was not himself. It is like some switch is turned on when he takes something he knows he is not suppose to have. Almost like he is reliving something from when he was a pup.

Now in response to Johnny--Why would I not want to keep him? He is NOT an unstable dog...not in the least...what he has is behavior problems. And Yes i do have a very good idea what causes this behavior. Do I ever want this situation to happen again? No way! Never. And there is no way I would ever ever ever EVER give him a "dirt nap". That is just a copout for people who are not willing to give it there all(Sahra you don't apply to that statment...I know how much you loved hazel and I know that you didn't have any more options. The statment applies to people who don't try to help there dog and take the easy way out.). I have not even begun to run out of options with Zebra. In fact I have many options. And I also relize that it's not only Zebra's fault but Mine too. I need to do allot more training with him. But I have faith that Zebra and I can change. And that's all that matters.

I'll keep you all updated on Zebra's progress. Thank you all so much..I duno what I would do without you all. :P

[mouseatthebusstop]

HazelNutMeg napisał(a):

I agree with Pei! :evil: Very unkind indeed!
Although I agree a dog like that shouldn't be put up for adoption, which is why Hazel had to be PTS :cry: but I tried for three years to help that dog, and nothing worked. At least Zebra is TRYING! :evil: :evil: :drinking:

I AGREE WITH PEI AND HAZEL

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

mouseatthebusstop napisał(a):

HazelNutMeg napisał(a):

I agree with Pei! :evil: Very unkind indeed!
Although I agree a dog like that shouldn't be put up for adoption, which is why Hazel had to be PTS :cry: but I tried for three years to help that dog, and nothing worked. At least Zebra is TRYING! :evil: :evil: :drinking:

I AGREE WITH PEI AND HAZEL

Me too! :evil: Please don't tell me the trolls are back! :-?

Star, I really understand what you are feeling right now, after reading your post I imagined Rowie growling at me and I was about ready to cry! I can really imagine your pain and frustration...

I agree with everything RoseBud and Courtnek said... :D I don't have anything else to say, sorry. :cry:

Other then comfort, I don't have anything, feel free to PM me if you need some comforting! :D

[Malamum]

Johnny, I'm not sure who you are and if your intention was to cause trouble but your post was unkind and totally unnecessary.

The situation for StarFox must be hard enough as it is without people making cruel comments like that. We are here to offer advice and support - not to upset people further.

StarFox has been given some great advice by everyone here so I actually have a question regarding dogs taking stuff they aren't supposed to like hairbands, clothes etc.....

When Indy takes stuff he isn't supposed to if he is within reach I will tell him to give and take it out of his mouth. However most of the time he thinks it's a great game and runs away and I don't have much hope of catching him. So I tend to get some food and tell him to trade - he gives me what he has and I give him the food. This works and I like the idea because it isn't punishing him, however I am worried that he may think he is being rewarded for taking the item and therefore I am actually encouraging him to take stuff?? Any input on this would be great.

StarFox - not trying to take over your thread here but since it was along the same lines and an issue you are having with Zebra I thought it was a question that a few of us my benefit from.

[courtnek]

Gooey,

dogs that steal things and wont give them back usually have socialization issues - they are insecure and these things make them feel secure.
However, if the dog becomes aggressive in not giving them up, then it becomes a dominance issue. Once they have been demoted, you can give them things to make them secure, providing they are willing to give them back. I leave an old t-shirt around for Freebee to lay on while I'm at work - it makes her feel secure - and she gives it up willingly every time.
(cant leave socks, she eats them). In a secure pack, the lower ranking members do as the alpha instructs, including giving up their "prize"

[Guest Anonymous]

One of ours steals because he's insecure (not to mention that he was roaming the streets eating out of trashcans for the first 6 months of his life and still feels the need to go on a binge sometimes), the other only steals out of boredom... like if we forget to leave out things that she can have, or she doesn't like them, or they get stuck under something and she can't reach them. Neither's guarding issues stem from dominance problems, but I know many dogs' do. Joey (the chi) will roll over and pee all over himself if we walk over to take something from him, then as soon as we reach down, he would either show teeth or snap at us (he usually showed other signs of submission, too, before, after, and during the "show"). He wasn't being "agressive", he was completely terrified and was trying to defend himself. He has no (and never has had any) problems allowing us to take things that have been given to him, it's just the chain of events when he steals that triggers his reaction. Instead of going to all that trouble, I just call him out, put him in a stay, and go get whatever it is that he stole. Still serves the same function, and is a lot less stressful on both of us.

Haley is also afraid if confronted after stealing something that she shouldn't have, and will go run and hide in a corner, something I've seen her do in the past, and that I know she only does when she's afraid (she used to do it everytime her old owner would come into the room with her shot, or if she got yelled at for anything). She also showed numerous signs of submission, licking the air, laying down or rolling over when we approached, and the expression on her face was usually one of fear. As soon as someone would reach for her, she'd try to run away, tail tucked, and I imagine she might have tried to bite if she hadn't been able to escape and we would have pushed her. She does not have any other problems, and has been put through some pretty strenuous tests of temperment, she hasn't met a person yet while she's been here that she hasn't loved (both in the house and out), and loves everyone at the vets, even though she gets blood drawn and other tests done at least twice a month. She also has no problem with people taking things that have been given to her, and I'd trust her only second to Goo as far as allowing someone to take something back after having it. With her, she's gotten to the point that when she steals something and I see her with it, she'll bring it over to me without even having to be told, because she knows that it's a good way to get a reward.

I'll admit though that we don't follow "standard" pack rules with our dogs, if we did, we'd have constant fights. When one of them has something, it's theirs, no one else if allowed to touch it, and some of them don't even want another dog near them (that's fine, as long as they don't use "excessive force" and that the other dog backs off when told to). If they drop it and walk away, I pick it up and put it away for a while, then might give it to them or another dog later. The object belongs to whichever dog (or person) has it at that particular time, no one else. If I need to take it for some reason, I either just take it and give them something in exchange, or distract them, then take it after they've forgotten about it. Our's is not a "stable" pack, either. Annie is here most of the time, but usually spends about 5 days a month at my aunts, Goo usually holes up in my room for a good part of the day, and Haley is completely excluded from all the other dogs except certain controlled times with Goo (even then, they aren't allowed to do any rank sorting, as it would most likely end in bloodshed). We have very few fights though, and most of the ones we've had have been between Annie and one of the other smaller dogs when we're out doing things that get the dogs excited and she redirects onto them, starting a fight.

[Horsefeathers!]

This is sort of an interesting topic for me. I'm sort of with gooey on this. My "pack" of eight isn't run in "pack" fashion. None of my dogs challenge me for any kind of authority. I have never thought much about being the first through a door, eating first, or any of that. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place. I've just never had a need for it. My dogs usually eat first because of the convenience and they are frequently shooshed through doors first just so I can see where they are when I'm coming through, though any one of them will sit/stay and wait if I asked (and sometimes I do... again, it just depends). Two of my dogs will growl and snarl if they are being "asked" to do something they don't want to do (being picked up, giving up something, whatever), but they've never actually snapped. Then again, I don't hesitate at whatever I'm doing. I don't back off, but I don't make a big deal out of the vocalizations. These two particular dogs are a Mini Schnauzer and a Lhasa Apso. I really don't mind the vocalization. My theory is that if I DID show hesitation when they grumbled, I'd be opening the door for further aggression and "dominance issues." One time, I did try to "show him who's boss" with my Mini Schnauzer. He growled at me when I picked him up to kennel him and I flipped his butt over and held him in that beloved alpha dominance "I'm the freaking boss" position because I had read that this was the correct thing to do. Oh my goodness, what did I want to go and do that for. This dog FREAKED out. Not so much in an aggressive manner, but in an absolute panic. I had him absolutely terrified of me and I have since felt awful. For the longest time, he would cower when I came near. I do not want my dogs to be afraid of me. Healthy respect is good, but I could never bear to think of them being afraid of me. He still grumbles and growls, but I reckon he's just venting. I can handle him any way I want to with nothing more than verbal protest.

I'm not really offering suggestions... just my insight from living on my own personal Island Of Misfits. I don't mind my dogs vocalizing their displeasure (grumbling). I can see where growling could lead to other things if it were allowed, but since I've never actually been afraid enough to back off, I've never had one as much as try to nip me. THEN, I'm afraid, they might have a reason to be afraid of me. :oops:

I'm sure different situations call for different techniques, but in general, I'm just not as crazy about that whole "alpha" and "pack mentality" stuff as a lot of people are. I know it's the popular thing now, but I've just never had to worry about it. I used to really be an "I'm the boss!!" kind of pet owner, but over the last few years, I've noticed that my dogs behave just as well, but seem more stable without me worrying about my "alpha status." Maybe if I had different breeds of dogs (more dominant?), or summat... Some of mine need a sterner hand (figuratively) than others, of course, and each dog is handled based on their particular temperaments and mentality, but I never make a deliberate attempt to "dominate" them. I suppose if one ever seriously challenges me somehow, I may react differently, but I honestly don't see it happening.

I think one thing that has established our "pack" is that we are a "no free lunch" household. Basically, my dogs earn anything good they get. It could be something as simple as sitting down before being petted, but I think this helped establish good habits and made them WANT to "do the right thing" instead of having to spend so much energy correcting bad behavior. Now it's just become habit that they will automatically sit, or wait for some simple request, when they want something. I kind of think this sort of work can help some problem dogs. We've fostered several "problem children" (dogs) that this worked beautifully for. Instead of intimidating them, it made them try really hard to "do the right thing" (I love that phrase... can you tell?). I just see the potential for more head butting if I tried to blatantly dominate them.

Again, I'm not knocking the whole "pack mentality" thing. It's just my own personal experience that I don't need to "dominate" my dogs, but perhaps if I had some other kinds of breeds, it might be necessary. I dunno.

[gooeydog]

HF, you explained some of what I meant a lot better than I did. Even when I was trying to help Haley's old owner's parents with their overly dominant lab x, I never even considered "forcing" him into a lower rank than me. It took forever, but with some of the NFL (no free lunch) things, and just basically letting him know that I wasn't giving in to his attitude like everyone else did (probably still does), we eventually got to the point where we had something resembling a "working relationship"... he respected me, and I respected him. He knew what I'd allow, and knew that that I wouldn't give an inch over what was allowed. He tried to bite me once, and we did have one incident in which he got my finger along with some food (my fault), which caused some problems for both of us, both incidents early on in the time that I was around him, and I just handled the situations and went on afterwards like nothing had happened. After he learned that I wasn't fazed by his "temper tantrums", he started actually looking to please me, in order to get what he wanted. It took a lot longer, and he still wasn't what I would call trustworthy, but I think he made it a lot further than he would have if I would have tried to "prove" to him that I was above him in rank. (Not to mention that I would probably have lost my face if I had tried to physically dominate him, as he outweighed me by about 20 lbs. :lol: )

[Peng1zrule]

Alpha dog reasoning does not work when the dog is ready to back up his vy for topdog position. Staring down a dog and alpha rolling the dog is a good way to get bit, especially in the face. A trip to the vet is definately in order, and if he's fine, you COULD try retraining him, but I would not suggest this if at any time there will be small children around him. I got one of mine from the pound, and he had problems--put that in capitals--PROBLEMS. He still does, but the major ones are past now. If I had had small children around him, I would've had to put him down. But since I have no kids, and have no relatives with kids, I worked with him. It took three years to get him to where I felt alright walking him down a public road, but never around strangers (I know all my neighbors and they know me and know his temperment) and I still never take chances.

[imported_Cassie]

gooeydog & horsefeathers, I really enjoyed reading your advice and comments.
I also do not follow any "pack" status with my dogs...I have 4 dogs at the moment including a very dominant Rottweiler (who is/was human aggressive ). My Rottweiler has never tried to go through open door ways before the other dogs its just first come first serve...I feed all my dogs before I eat (I always make sure they see me prepare the food) and I find that my Rottweiler will wait till the other dogs are finished then she will make a big display of eating her food very slowly and making it look really tasty! :lol: I have owned dogs for many many years and I have always had at least 4 dogs at a time...my Rottie was the first dog I tried the "alpha roll" with ( I have adopted aggressive dogs in the past) and trying to be alpha with this Rottweiler really back fired and almost made her more aggressive! I am not saying that the advice which courtnek gave was wrong...by getting beneath any dominant animal (even cockatoo's) can be a bad thing..I just don't beleive in the "alpha roll" and due to the reading I have been doing I have realized that our household dogs do not respond to pack situations like wolves do, packing is a learned behavior, and not all wolves pack either...my dominant Rottie will get down in a submissive position with my new puppy while they are playing...she is not really submitting to her just playing...I have observed many behaviors my dominant dog has done which by "pack" rules she really should'nt be displaying...the biologist I had copied my quote from has been studing wolves, house hold dogs, herding dogs and sled dogs for 45 years...he has studied dogs in their natural environments & has studied wolves in their natural environment and wolves which live in wolf park....and has come to realize that dogs do not think like wolves..for example a village named Pemba they have domestic dogs which run loose in the village along with the villagers chickens...the dogs do not touch the chickens; which probably they have learned not to touch if they are to survive (learned behaviour) the people in this village think of the local dogs as we view rats..not with much love at all. The dogs do not belong to any one yet they live within the village in the peoples back yard and feed & scavange on the humans left over's...these dogs do not pack as a packing behavior is not in the best interest to a dog which lives amoust people. There are alot of learned behaviors with our dogs and the critical period is very important in a young pup's life to learn to adapt to life with people...I am also not saying that dogs cannot be dominant and not try to test their owners...but, I am a firm beleiver in reward systems show a dog the right way and reward for it, example by giving up my toy I will give you a better toy in return...I'm not going to give the dog a reason to guard in the future by thinking I'm going to take away what she has stolen, the "off" & "take it" was by far the best thing I ever trained my Rottie. I believe the book which I have finished reading is going to be a new understanding for trainers & behaviorist and Vet's...Biologist's actually study animals, trainers etc learn from other people of how dogs should act.
if any one is interested in reading the book I have finished it is called Dogs; by Raymond Coppinger & Lorna Coppinger (Biologists)

[gooeydog]

I agree that in some cases, dogs need to be taught to "pack" with other dogs.... Goo has never really liked other dogs, she'll tolerate them (if introduced properly), but it's obvious that she doesn't really care for their company and couldn't really care less if they're around or not. She doesn't like them touching her, or laying near her, or doing a lot of other things "normal" dogs do, but usually won't do anything but get up and go into my room where they can't get to her. She also doesn't play much with them, and if they try to play with her, she'll usually either leave and try to initiate play with me, or just ignore their attempts and stay where she is. She's been around Casey the longest, then Annie, Joey, and Haley. Out of all of them, the only one she ever seems to actually "like" is Annie. Annie is allowed at certain times to lay beside her (once in a while, even curled up on her back), and to interrupt Goo's playtime without being warned off (sometimes Goo will actually play with her :roll: ), among other things that Goo doesn't normally allow (by not allowing, she usually just gives a grunt, and leaves, or gives me the "get them awwaaay from me..." look and I shoo them off). She doesn't really seem to care much about enforcing "the rules", but yet ALL the dogs respect her, and there is no question that THEY think Goo is in charge.

I don't think though that the desire to form a pack outweighs the desire to survive, and that's why I don't like the idea of assuming a dog has dominance problems before fixing any problems they have that stem from their instinct to survive (ie: food guarding, defensive reactions when backed into a corner, ect). And I agree that it can actually make the dog worse, because it's only reinforcing in their minds that there is a NEED to continue that behavior in order to survive.

[Rosebud]

:D

Rosebud--Your almost right..Actually I am Alpha--My mom and dad are about equal and are Beta and my brother is next then there is Zebra. I know males are usually the Alpha but in this case I am. I train Zebra and spend most of my time with him.

Starfox - What I meant by your parents being Alpha & Beta is that Zebra is aware of them being your Alpha's and like what is sterotypical in a household the wife is the Beta to the husband's Alpha, therefore you would be third down the pack order with your brother next and zebra last. I hope this clarify's what I meant by your household's pack order.

Gooeydog, Cassie & Horsefeathers - I would like to point out that if you thoroughly understood pack order you would realize that you DO follow pack order, your dogs are just content on where they are in your pack.

I live with two Rhodesian Ridgebacks and an Italian Greyhound. In my household I am Alpha, my dogs will listen to me ALL of the time, I did not train with intimidation but with authority, I scolded bad behavior and rewarded good behavior. I can take anything I want away from any one of the four-legged children in my household at any time I please (including my cats, even Miss Kitty who was a wild field cat when I got her). Sandy the IG is higher up and I keep her there so that the RR's will respect her with her being so much smaller than them. Sandy and Rocket have this thing with the toys which are community property. Whatever they have the other one wants it. They are usually very good about working it out themselves but if Rocket steals from Sandy I give it back to her, if he growls over any toy I take that toy away from ALL of them. By my doing this I AM INFACT keeping the pack order where I WANT IT. I practice basic obedience everyday with them, if it's nothing but asking them to sit before they get a cookie. When they are allowed to run at the park all I have to say is "To Far" and they come back towards me, I can tell them to "Leave It" if they are comtemplating to roll in something gross or chase after something (understand my hounds, all three of them, have very strong prey drive). In a true pack setting if the Alpha dog is highly displeased and decides to get involved in the situation a strong glance is sufficient, well that's all I have to do and they know. Now Sally did challeng me once for Alpha and she lost and now respects her place in the pack.

A healthy pack is completely based on how strong the Alpha is and how much respect the Alpha has, without it you have get dominance issues and aggression.

:angel:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

How is Zebra now? Better? :-?

[gooeydog]

Rosebud, I didn't mean that the dogs don't follow pack order, but rather that we (at least my family) don't follow it very much. I take dogs out in whatever order I feel like, feed them whenever and in whatever order I like, pet whomever I want whenever I want (if any of them have a problem with it, I make them go lay down, I don't care what rank they are), etc. We have a very loose version of order around here, and even the dogs seem to follow that path, as they rarely get caught up in rank issues, even when one is breaking a "rule" of pack behavior.

[Rosebud]

:D :wink:

That's pretty much what happens in my household too, although I do always feed them after me, mainly because they get the leftovers and since it can be pretty dangerous for two RR's trying to push by you through a doorway, they must wait till I tell them it's o.k.

I guess my point was that you have a functional pack, therefore a pecking order within your household is not necessary.

I think that may be where some confusion may be, Pack Order is not neccessarily the same as Peck Order, I do not allow my household to practice Peck order although I do try to maintain a healthy Pack Order.

:angel:

[Horsefeathers!]

Rosebud napisał(a):

Gooeydog, Cassie & Horsefeathers - I would like to point out that if you thoroughly understood pack order you would realize that you DO follow pack order, your dogs are just content on where they are in your pack.

I think maybe my long and drawn out post was misperceived. I do thoroughly understand what pack order is and have absolutely no doubt that my "pack" accepts me as their "alpha." I just don't obsess over it and feel the constant urge to have to dominate my dogs. We have plenty of mutual respect without me having to rule with an iron fist (ex: worrying about who goes through doors first, who eats first, who sleeps where, etc.).

I would like to point out, once again, that I am not knocking those who do follow such stringent rules. I am aware that there is no one size fits all regimen for all dogs and owners. I'm sure there are those dogs who need the domination and constant reminders of where their "place in the pack" is. Just saying mine don't. :)

[courtnek]

aqreed. I dont follow my own rules half the time, because Freebee is not
aggressive towards me. In fact. most people dont. The only reason I made this suggestion is because this is an aggressive dog, and needs to be trained and put back in place. Once he has been demoted properly, you can relax the rules a little as long as he keeps his place. Most dogs are ok with the rules being bent, it's only when they're not that you have to be strict about it.

Sorry. I didnt mean to make it seem that this is a life sentence for the poor pup, just a retraining exercise....

:oops: