He tried to attack me.

[StarFox]

Oh what a horrible day!!! Zebra went insane today and tried to bite me! :cry:

This is what happend: Zebra took a headband off my bed and ran under the table with it. Now usually when he takes stuff I just clip on his leash and take him outside but this time he groweld when i tried to put the leash on him. So I left him alone for a hour or so and i didn't try to get it away from him. My mom decided that she could get it and she did....well sorta. She threw a peice of cheese in the opposite direction of the head band and when Zebra went to go get the cheese she grabed the head band. Except Zebra sorta lunged at her (I dunno exactly what happend because I wan't in the room but this is what my mom and dad told me). So then he came out from under the table and his tail was wagging and he was ok..but then my dad put his hand down and scratched his head and he started to quiver his lips...ya know when they are angry how they wrinkle there nose. So my dad just walked away and went to the refrigerator except that zebra would get in his way and would growel and bite at his feet if he walked forward. Now this kinda made me mad and so I stood behind Zebra in the Alpha position and he freaked out!!!!! He started groweling realy badly so I wraped my arms around his chest (by this time he was sitting down w/ me standing behind him) . He was getting very mean and so I pushed him down onto the ground and held him down by holding on to his collar and kinda sitting on him..(we learned to do this in training class, I know it sounds kinda weird but it's hard to explain). Anways this is when things went from bad to worse. Then he bared his teeth to me and was growling so bad that is sounded like someone was choking him! His gums were blood red and he kept trying to jerk his head toward me so he could bite me. By this time my mom was like "what the Hell is going on?!" and my dad was in the same room and he asked me "are you scared?" and i said yes i was. Zebra was jerking about so badly that I almost lost grip on him...*god now i'm crying*. I knew I couldn't let go of him because I knew he would bite me. I mean he was literaly going pshyco. I have never seen him that bad before. So my dad got this broom stick that we have and hit the floor with it so it made a loud "boom" noise and Zebra instatly stoped growling. By this time I was crying so hard because I was scared and upset but mostly angry. Zebra started to growl again so my dad hit the floor with the broom stick with twice. This time Zebra stoped. So my dad is standing next to me and I can bearly see because i'm crying so hard and my dad was mad.....i mean very mad. I'm perty sure that he would have killed Zebra if he would have bitten me. Uh....so then I got up and pulled Zebra into the laundry room that is at the very back of the house next to my room and put him in there. He is still in there all alone away from the rest of us.

God i'm soo upset. I have never seen Zebra that bad. I don't even know what dog that was that did that because it sure wasn't the same dog that licks me in the face everytime i come home. It wasn't even zebra...it didn't look like him..His eyes were glazed over like he was possesed. It wasn't even him. :cry: He is still not himself 3 hours after what happend. He is all nervous and scared. I don't even know what to do anymore. The thing is while i was holding him down i KNEW that if i let up a little he would have bitten me. I have no doubt in my mind about that. So what do I do now??? Go to training and hope that he won't do that again? Do I put him up for adoption and know that he might get PTS? Do I chance something like this again? I mean what if he does bite me or my brother or my mom or dad?? I know if Zebra were to bite anyone in my family my dad would kill him and yes I mean that in the very literal sense. Uh! I've never been so frusterated or confused before! I know that he must have been abused as a puppy but we got him at 2 and a half months and the humane society had him for 2 weeks. But how much could have happend in 2 months? I mean could something so horrible have happend to him in such a short time that it made this big of an impact on him? Or was it something I did or didn't do? But the thing is that Zebra has been so well behaved lately and all was going so well now this happens out of no where. It's like there are 2 dogs in one...like a jeckle(sp?) and hyde dog.

Oh geese i'm sorry this is so long but I'm just realy confused. Sorry. :oops:

[bk_blue]

Gee I don't know what to say. :cry: How very scary and sad for you and your family.

A physical examination at the vet may be worth looking into- sometimes when a dog is in pain he will act strangely for no apparent reason. Another list I am on wrote in about a happy, friendly blue heeler who "turned" on his family and bit their baby, so they had him PTS and autopsied- turned out there was a tumour growing on the nerve into the brain which was most likely making the dog act the way he did.

Apart from that I can't offer you any advice. :(

[Daisysmom]

StarFox, so sorry to hear about Zebra. Was there anything different that happend that day? Did he eat anything strange, or was there a new person introduced to him that day????? Anything like that? :roll: Did he get yelled at earlier for something that you don't know about, or maybe even hit???? Is he fixed? Is there a dog in heat anywhere?

I too think an exam is a good idea if no is the answer to all the questions above.....

Good luck!!

[imported_Cassie]

I agree with bk_blue...definately take Zebra in to the Vet's for a complete physically exam. I would also suggest some serious training for Zebra...it sounds like she is possessive & dominant. Here is a wonderful web site which will help you and Zebra...

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1551&articleid=2415

I just wanted to let you know that you & Zebra can make it through this...I had aggression problems with an 11 month old Rottweiler I adopted she was neglected before I got her. She attacked me (for no reason while walking...she would stalk me and then run and throw her whole body into the attack and grab for my arms and face) she would not allow me to pat her on top of the head ( a good sign a dog is dominant) and she was snappy and protective of her food. I worked with a good animal behaviorist (obedience classes were not an option as she is also dog aggressive) My dog now (2 years later) is a wonderful pet...she is submissive and great to work with I do lots of obedience work with her and make sure she is well excersised! a tired dog is a less aggressive dog, and keep her mind busy with obedience, kong bones filled with peanut butter or cream cheese, or you can put treats inside kong bones and she can work at getting them out...I give my dog a femur bone daily which keeps her busy and she gets 3 walks a day...2 short ones about 20 minutes then a long walk for about 1 hour 45 minutes I found other dogs she likes and plays with and they can run and play (I have Newf's also but they are not hyper enough to tire my Rottie out) I also get all my dogs out swimming when the weather is nice.
One last thing, all envolved with Zebra must work on this together to resolve this dominant behavior.

[abker17]

I'm so sorry to hear what happened to U :( I would definatley have him checked out by the vet. Is he on any medicene? When we put our malamute mix on steroids for her allergies she bacame more aggressive and lunged at me a couple times. Keep us updated, and don't give up hope.

[Rosebud]

:o

You did the right thing by pinning him down and letting him know you are still Alpha. I'm glad your father supported you and didn't make you let him up. I would take him to the vet and make sure nothing is physically wrong that could have caused this. Get him neutered if he's not already.

Let us know what happens.

:angel:

[imported_Cassie]

You did the right thing by pinning him down and letting him know you are still Alpha

Quote by Rosebud

Rosebud, this is not the correct thing to do to a dominant dog...it is a sure way to get bitten only! .
attempts to "show the dog who is boss" may challenge the dog to be more aggressive, may injure the dog, and do nothing to teach the dog a more appropriate behavior in place of aggression.
I have been through this problem with my Rottweiler...I thought that showing my dog who was "alpha" by putting her in a submissive postion was the correct thing to do...wrong...I got bitten...I learned that by redirecting her aggression and by obedience and other things like sitting before getting a favorite treat, laying down on command before meal time is served etc...a good animal behaviorist who has experience with dominance aggression can help...

[courtnek]

Starfox, I have a lot of experience with this problem, having owned two aggressive-to-people dogs.

couple of things - Was this completely abnormal for Zebra, or does he show aggression sometimes, just not this much?

If this is completely abnormal, he needs to get to a vet immediately. There could be neurological problems in his brain. As was suggested, he should go see the vet anyway for a completel physical after this, but definitely suggest they do bloodwork and x-rays of his head.

If he is dominant sometimes, just not this bad, itcould be an alpha issue that's
been pushed over the edge. He thinks he's boss now.
If that's the case, and nothing has been found physically wrong with him, you need to demote him. This is not an easy thing to do with an aggressive dog, and everyone in the family has to take part. I will list the steps you can start with. You should see an improvement almost immediately IF you and your family keep to this practice at all times.

First, put a short three-foot lead on him. Leave it on him all the time, under supervision (take it off at night to sleep, you dont want him to catch it on something and strangle) Dont do anything with it at first, let him
get used to having it on. This allows you to restrain him without injury to yourself if necessary.

Take away ALL of his toys. Put them up where he casn see them, but cant reach them. Run him through an abeidience session three times a day, and when he obeys, treat him and let him have ONE of his toys. Let him play with it awhile, then make him lay down and take it away.This is where
the lead comes in. PULL him away from the toy, and have whoever is going to assume the alpha position take the toy away and put it back up.

Everytime he does something good, reward him in this way. Dont let the sad puppy dog eyes fool you, this will take time.

Next - NEVER let him enter a doorway before you. If he tries, grab the lead and make him sit, then you go through first. EVERY time. I cant stress enough that this is a process that you have to do continuously, and every member of your family has to as well. You are retraining him in the
alpha position role, he needs to understand that he is subservient to you and every family member in your house.

NEVER NEVER let him sleep on your, or any other bed. In the pack, the alpha gets the best sleeping locations. That should always be reserved for you and your family only. The couch is off limits for now too.

If your house has stairs, never let him go up to the top and sleep there
while you are downstairs. The alpha always gets the "overlook" position
to watch and discipline the pack. Again, the lead will come in handy here.

NEVER let him eat before you. I know that sounds silly, but the alpha in every pack always gets to eat first, and the best, of the kill. No table scraps while you are eating, in fact, make him leave the room. Put him where he can see you eat, but he cannt get to the table. If you have to feed him first for some reason, like you're going out to dinner, then put him in his "mealtime spot" and sit down where he can see you. Eat a few crackers, so he can see you eating first, then feed him.

Everytime he responds positively to your new rold as leader, praise him and reward him. You dont want to make this a painful process, it's just a demotion.

Am I treating him like a wild dog? yes, because now he has assumed the alpha role, and in a human household, he is wild and dangerous.

Also, dont leave anything laying around that he can steal, like the headband. He will try very hard to retain his alpha role, and so we dont want to tempt him into disobedience.

If you stick to this routine day in and day out, in a short time you should see a major improvement, and get your loving dog back.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes, ok?

Katy

[imported_Cassie]

Another good thing to teach your dog is "off" and "take it" they taught me many things at the aggression seminars I have attended...this was by far the best one which helped me with my dog. take a favorite treat in your hand and hold your hand out palm up with the treat so Zebra can see it, say "off" when she goes to grab for the treat close your hand over the treat keep doing this until Zebra gives up and looks away then you can offer it again but say "take it" when she takes the treat praise her...if your afraid she may bite your hand put the treat under your foot, expose the treat then cover it up with your foot (shoe) again.
But, please don't go at this alone...please seek the help of a trainer or animal behaviorist (have your Vet recommend a good one) each dog is an individual...and you need some one who can look at Zebra as an individual and start from there.

[StarFox]

This morning I had a talk with my parents and we decided that the best thing to do was to vigorously(sp?) train him and have one on one sessions with our trainer at our house. I think this would be best for all of us. Zebra has always been alpha dog, in our training class he would try and mount the English mastiff and the great dane :roll: (not with much sucess though). Zebra had previously growled and snapped at us before and we always had "punished" him by putting him alone in the back while we eat, giving him his food last. And I trained him to go down stairs after me. All was going very well for about two months then this happend. I can't figure out why he would turn on us like that. Nothing out of the ordinary happend and he was himself all day. Now some of you asked if he was on any medications and yes he is...He is on 400Mg of Amoxixillin twice a day for allergies...and had had a shot about a week ago for allergies too. But I'm not sure if allergie medication would cause him to do that.

Ok now here is were I;m a little confused..he dons't sleep on my bed but he use to sleep next to my bed on a pillow. Then all of a sudden he wouldn't sleep in my room and would only sleep under the table which i think he considers his "den" (I was thinking about taking his "den" away some how, so he dosn't have a place to hide). The problem is that I know he shouldn't sleep higher than me but my room is "downstairs". See my room is an add on and it is only 2 steps down, not that big of a deal but latly he won't sleep 'downstairs" in my room. And he only sleeps under the table or in the laundry room next to my room. Arr..so what am i suppose to do about that?? Does 2 little stairs realy matter?? Do i make him come downstairs with me?? :-?

Oh he is fixed and there is no female in heat anywhere. But I have noticed that he has gotten allot more agressive when he sees cats. before he use to ignore them now it;s non stop barking, lunging and his hair on his back is raised. The thing is he isn't agressive with his food, I can pat him on his head....so why only on certain occasions does he try to be Alpha. I think that he might be trying to test me because I am the only one that spends allot of time with him and trains him...I am also Alpha to him. So maybe he was testing me.

I'm just glad my dad said he wanted to keep him because I thought he would want to get rid of him. My dad had NO tolerance for animals in general. especially for dogs...althought I can't blaim him because he got bit by a dog as a child and never grew up with a dog. He has the mantality of "if a dog is bad, hit it" :x . But I think he is learning that that is unexceptable.

One last thing that I thought was odd about last night...Right before I had to do "alpha" on him I told him to sit and he did...without a problem. So why would he obay me one second then turn on me the next???? Arrg! My dog must have multiple personalities or something.

Thank you all for the advice..It realy helped allot. :P And you made me feel allot better. :D

[courtnek]

Starfox I am concerned

Amoxicillin is an antibiotic - for bacterial infections, like bronchitus, or
Urinary tract infections....does he have a bacterial infection from his allergies? If not, I see no reason why the vet would have prescribed amoxicillin.....It does not, to my knowledge, have any practical use for trating allergies unless an infection is involved.

Please check with the vet to make sure this is what he/she meant to prescribe, and have them explain why.

The trainer is an excellent idea!! But the amoxicillin concerns me - if he doesnt have a bacterial infection, the antibiotic is destroying "positive" bacteria, and that may well have a bad effect on the dog. We all have positive bacteria in our colons, stomachs and lungs....and it needs to be there for a reason.

Let us know how he gets on, ok?

[courtnek]

I would make sure he sleeps on your level, even a slightly higher ground enforces alpha role. Stealing thimgs and protecting them was a problem I had with Ras, but he was abused very badly as a puppy. You can train them out of this, but it takes time, patience and the lead. Find something old of yours that smells like you, and give it to him, but make sure he lets you take it back. This is after the demotion training, by the way.
Sometimes they just need something that smells like their alpha's to be comfortable. If he is willing to give it back, every time, then he's accepted his subservient role and you can let him keep it. Freebee has an old t-shirt of mine that she like to lay on while I'm at work.

[Malamum]

Oh Starfox I can just imagine how distressing the situation must be for you.

You have been given some fantastic advice so I have nothing really to add, but just wanted to say hang in there. With patience and dedication to Zebra's training it will all work out.

[Guest Anonymous]

This may sound a little weird... but, what kind of food is Zebra eating?
We had quite the simular problem with Hazel, although she wasn't as dominant. Once we got her off the dry dog food, and on the BARF diet, she did SOOO much better. Problem was, we couldn't keep her out of cat food or people food :-? It was next to impossible, 'pecially when my older sister kept feeding her crap!!! :evil: :evil: That, and TONES of training, she would get so much better, but as soon as she got in the cat food, things would change. She'd become more headstrong, and aggressive. After we had her PTS ( :cry: ) the vet told us that there was nothing we could have done, she did have a chemical imballance, and that no matter how much training, it wouldn't have fixed her problem. :cry:
I'm wondering if it's something like that with Zebra? I wouldn't be very suprised. Although the BARF diet takes a LOT of hard work, dedication, and knowledge, not something you can just jump into, unless you know what your doing. 'Pecially when dealing with a dog like that, you have to make sure he stays VERY strickt to the diet.
It's just a suggestion. But if you want more info, feel free to PM me with any questions!! Or even ask others around here, I know there's a few other people who feed their dog BARF on here... I think there is anyway.
I'm in a real hurry, so sorry I couldn't read this whole thing, and if anyone else suggested it, or if I'm TOTALLY off track here on the problem!! :oops: If so, IGNORE THIS! I'll read the rest when I get back online! :oops:

[Aroura]

I'll second Hazel on the BARF thing. Although Lily isn't on a 100% BARF diet at the moment, she is alot calmer than she was only just dry food - the higher the ratio of BARF to commercial food, the calmer she gets. Tessa has been switched to BARF also, and since the switch its like I have a new dog. She's alot happyer and no longer shy like she has been for YEARS now - she will actually come up and play, wagging her tail now, whereas before when I tried to play with her, no matter how much I tried to psych her up, she would just sit there, to shy to play.
I'm having a look around for some of the sights where I innitially read about BARF reducing aggression problems with all the proof - but I can't find them!!!
In any case, if Zebra is on medication for allergies BARF may help with that too!

[StarFox]

Thank you all soo much for you help. I appreciate it more than you will ever know.

Courtnek-The vet gave him Amoxicillin to prevent infection. Zebra had got bitten buy a tick and was scratching so badly at it that he was breaking the skin and making scabs. So I'm assuming that's why the vet gave him the meds. He also got a shot of something...I can't remember what it was. :oops:

Hazel-We have just sarted him on a differnt diet. And when I mean just started i mean today.. :) Right now he is getting a mix of Dry Solid Gold adult formula and wet Natures Variety in beef. Before he was getting Eaukanuba Dry food for puppies- :flop: . I think this change in diet will help him because he is actually eating the new food and not just letting it sit there like he did with the Eaukanuba.

But today Zebra has been good and he has ONLY eaten his food after we all had our food. When I took him outside I made him wait till I was out before he could go...(even thought it took me 10 mins :roll: ). BUt on Tuesday I'm going to call our trainer (she is realy good and has worked with Wolves, bears and other wild animals.) and I'm going to see what she says and when we can scedual an appointment together. :P

Today Zebra has been realy good and I even stood behind him in the 'alpha" position and he couldn't have cared less. He was just like "eh". *sigh* I swear sometimes he is an angel :angel: and some times he is the devil :diablotin:

[Rosebud]

:wink:

Next - NEVER let him enter a doorway before you. If he tries, grab the lead and make him sit, then you go through first. EVERY time. I cant stress enough that this is a process that you have to do continuously, and every member of your family has to as well. You are retraining him in the
alpha position role, he needs to understand that he is subservient to you and every family member in your house.

This is very, very valuable. Once I started doing this with Sally-Rose she almost immediately quit purposely ignoring my commands. Now I have to tell her when it's o.k. for her to enter before me, like getting into the car, she will not get in till I tell her to.

Cassie,

Assuming the Alpha position is valuable in CERTAIN situations. Zebra had already tried to bite, would not give the hairband back to anyone. Starfox was apparantly aware of the danger involved and that if this position was necessary that it would mean that she would HAVE to WIN or the situation would be worse, he father obviously was aware of this as well and supported her by standing over them in another Alpha roll with the broom. Considering the entire situation, Starfox and her father were right in what they did and now they can safely proceed with further demotion of Zebra. Dogs do this position naturally themselves when they pull each other down by the skin on their necks. I am not saying that this is not a dangerous roll, but if it has to be done then anyone assuming this position should be prepared for the worst and aware that they cannot under any circumstances give in.

:angel:

[Rosebud]

Cassie,

Allow me to elorborate:

There is a total of 5 in the pack at Starfox's home, based on her concern of the situation I would interpret the pack order as follows.
Father - Alpha
Mother - Beta
Starfox - next
Brother - next (out of respect to the Alpha from Zebra)
Zebra - last.

Zebra challenged one of his Alpha's over the headband and won, he then challenged the Beta and in effect still won. He then challenged the Alpha and won when the alpha walked away when zebra growled over being petted).

At this point Zebra has established himself as Alpha and is attempting to run the true Alpha away from the pack (following father and growling and nipping at feet). He has in fact gone from the bottom of the pack to the top in one episode.This now makes a touchy situation dangerous. The pack order has to be re-established in a certain way. It is extremely important that Starfox be higher up in the pack order over Zebra, therefore she is the one who should re-establish pack order. I will interpret her concern over zebra biting her brother as he is not strong or experienced enough to re-establish the pack order himself.

Starfox then attempts to subdue zebra by standing over him in an authoritive position to which he challenges by growling at her, the next step would be to perform the alpha roll. Now had she backed away from him at this point and allowed her father to challenge zebra for alpha, zebra would have only moved down to number 2 in the pack and the issue betweem him and starfox would still have to be addressed. Starfox assumes the roll position and zebra resists with severe aggression, Starfox is supported by her father standing over the whole incident ("growling" with the broom) to keep zebra in check. Now Starfox has acknowledge that she was trained to do this and understands the importance of winning this particular challenge.

we learned to do this in training class,

. Now with Starfox assuming the role and her father backing her up with the position zebra finally reliquishes his new position to them and Starfox banishes him from the pack by confining him to the laundry room.

In this particular situation with Starfox and Zebra she did the right thing. Now that he has reliquished the Alpha position they can re-introduce him to the pack in his proper position. This should be done with her trainers help and should result in a functional pack.

:angel:

[courtnek]

Both inputs on the "dominant position" are correct, YES, it is VERY dangerous and often results in being bitten. BUT, Rosebud is correct in the assertion that it had to be done. If you relinquish alpha role to a dog, they will NEVER give it up willingly. Zebra had gotten too big for his britches, and I feel it happened over time, not just suddenly. Since he has snapped and growled before (NEVER ALLOW THAT! PLEASE!) although he didnt bite on those occasions, being allowed to get away with it only made him more certain he could take over the top spot. It's a gradual take over in the pack. The lesser ranks challenge the alpha's, if they win a few rounds they get more nasty about it, until the takeover is complete. Sorry, Starfox, but in a pack Zebra see's you and your family as "weak leaders" (although you had no way of knowing that) and so tried the takeover. His food may have been contributing as well, especially if he wasnt willingly eating it. I have heard a lot of bad things about Eukanuba and some dogs. Neither of mine would eat it either, although my cat loves it.

Also, an animal with food allergies would be much grumpier than usual. They cant tell you the food is making them itch, or scratch, or bite. A person could, but they have no way of telling you this. The new diet seems to be agreeing with him, and that's a good sign. But you still have to retain the leader role, or he could fall back into his bad behavior. With some dogs, you have to retain and enforce it for life. My Malamute/BC mix was extremely dominant, and until he got old (8 or so, old for a 120 lb. dog)
he always tried to takeover, and the battle would ensue. I had a "catching stick" (the kind you see on AP, where there is a noose and a pole to seperate the dog from the catchers) to control him with when he got out of hand. I had a behaviorist explain to me what I was doing wrong, and after that I was able to maintain control without the stick. Once he had been completely demoted, he became the best dog in the world. But I had to keep enforcing my place his whole life.

Let us know how you get on, ok?

Glad we were able to help.

:D

[imported_Cassie]

Quote by Raymond Coppinger & Lorna Coppinger (Biologists)

Today, the popular dog press seems to feel that if dogs descended from wolves, they would have wolf qualities. But the natural selection model points out that wolf qualities are severely modified. Dogs do not think like wolves, nor do they behave like them. Books about training dogs would have us believe that dogs get their behavior directly from wolves. We are advised to act like the pack leader, the alpha male, and treat our dogs as subordinates. Since dogs came from wolves, they say, dogs should behave like wolves, think like wolves, and respond to wolflike signals
but, dogs do not think like wolves, because they do not have wolf brains. We descended from apes, but we don't behave like them and we don't think like they do. We are a much different animal than the apes in spite of our common genetic ancestry. The same is true of the dog and its ancestor.
I think it is wrong to treat our best friend like a wolf. I have trained hundreds of sled dogs and hundreds more sheepdogs. Asserting dominance over one of my favorite working dogs by pressing it onto the ground and snarling at it is preposterous. I don't think a dog knows what people are talking about when they exhibit this "alpha wolf" behavior. Dogs do not understand such behaviors because the domestic dogs didn't have a pack structure; they were semisolitary animals. Such behavior by humans confuses them.
The biological reality of all this is that the wolf is now the distant cousin of the dog. That canid family tree split, and wolves and dogs went along their seperate branches. The wolf displays specialized adaptations to the wilderness, and the dog displays specialized adaptations to domestic life. The two canid cousins are adapted to different niches, and they are very different animals because of it.

The first and most important aspect of creating a mutual relationship with dogs is not genetic at all, but rather the development of puppies in the environment they are expected to perform in as adults. Unfortunately, the critical period is often poorly understood, even by trainers whose job it is to shape a dog's behavior for a specific use as an adult. For example, a pervasive view describes the social behavior within a pack of wolves is genetic. Because of this, the reasoning of dog trainers goes: dogs are descended from wolves and wolves form packs, and therefore dogs understand wolf-pack behavior and should respond to the trainer as "alpha," or dominant, in its life.
But is wolf-pack behavior genetic? not really. Pack behaviors, like all behavior, are epigenetic - above the genes. They are a result of behaviors learned during the critical period. Pack behavior is just one of many social options available to wolves. If dogs don't develop pack social behavior during their critical period, there is no sense in trying to simulate pack leadership after that social window closes. Pack behaviors are much more complicated than just hierarchies of social status. They are learned through social play and care-soliciting behaviors during the juvenile period. A trainer who pretends to be the alpha leader of a wolf pack - say, by turning a dog over onto its back and getting down and growling at its throat - is intimidating the dog, no doubt. But to a dog, the message is not what the trainer thinks it is. Teaching and learning are seldom facilitated by intimidation. A dog doesn't learn how to sit from a trainer who intimidates it, simply because the coercion diverts the dog's attention away from the task and toward its social status. The fact that so many believe the wolf-pack homology, and use it in training a dog, is really a testament to how little is understood about canine behavioral development

I must add that Zebra must be very confused at this point in life...all the family members ganging up on the dog! poor thing!
I got a good animal behaviorist who did not intimidate my dog...she used a reward system for what the dog did right not attacking the poor thing when it did wrong! Dogs do things for a reason, for a reward ...yes you can intimidate a dog into being submissive to you...but you can also teach the dog to be part of your "group" not "pack" and be happy doing so without intimidating the poor thing.
I wish you the best of luck starfox...

[courtnek]

I disagree completely with the above quotes, and never once did I recommend intimidation. Dogs are descended from wolves, the biological experts cant deny that, and they do retain SOME wolf characteristics, although not all. Ordinarily, if they are a single dog in your houose, they may not revert to pack behavior. In a multiple dog household they will, plain and simple, because those are the onlt rules nature supplied them with. Even in some single dog households, unless the owners lay down the rules the dog will attempt to be top of the pile...

The suggestions I gave Starfox had nothing to do with intimidation. Stopping a dog from going thru doorways, not letting it sleep on your bed,
eating before it does - is not intimidating. She is not threatening the
animal in any way - she is simply making it behave according to pack rules. In a real wolf pack, the alpha rarely ever disciplines the members, unless they get out of hand. That's left up to the underlings in most cases.

HOWEVER - if a lower ranking pack member tries to take over, then yes, the Alpha will get involved. In Starfox's case, the lower ranking animal was threatening the pack leaders, and needs to be demoted.

And as far as the quote about apes - I'm sorry, but be real. Man is the only animal (that we know of) who's brain has evolved far enough away
from the animal that we can choose whether to be independent, social, unsocial, and completely stop following any kind of "pack" rules. Packs
formed for the protection of the entire group - all stay fed, all are cared for. WE lived in packs back in the days when we had to cooperate for survival. Wolves have to cooperate for survival, it's as simple as that.
And dogs, even though they may be sheltered and eat every day,
will still respond to pack rules if not trained properly. Those are the only rules they know.....

It was also shown in studies of both dogs and wolves, "that of ninety different behavior patterns exhibited by the domestic dog, all but nineteen were present in the wolf. (Thousands of years of domestication have probably created some patterns in the dog that the wolf in the wild does not need for survival)" John Fisher, Behaviorist, from the book "Why Does My Dog...?"

I believe this book is a MUST for anyone raisikng a dog and unsure of how
the pack rules really work - perhaps you should send one to the people who believe that dogs show no wolflike behavior or tendencies....

Maybe if we, as people, could learn the cooperation displayed by both wolf packs and properly placed and treated dogs, could get along a whole lot better.

and by the way, John Fisher NEVER advocates "intimidation" - he is comp-letely against it - because if you run your pack well, it's not needed....

[gooeydog]

Growling and snapping are just warnings leading up to the actual bite... if you choose to "not allow" those behaviors, you're basically forcing the dog to skip them the next time they feel threatened and bite without warning. My mom's Chi does the same "steal & guard" thing, and Haley's done it a few times, too (hasn't done it recently, and never to the extent that Joey does). In both of our dogs' cases, it's NOT an alpha problem, they're reacting out of fear. Both have been punished for stealing things in the past, so they know (or rather, think they know) that a person walking up to them after they've snatched something means that they're going to be punished. I'm not saying that this is what his problems stem from, but since you said he was nervous and scared, it seems like a possibility.

By confronting him over the toy (after he stole it, it was his toy), you're only reinforcing his thought that he needs to be defensive, and scare you off by growling, snapping, and if neither of them works, biting. You only raised the intensity of the conflict (and aggression) by coming back at him with aggression yourself.

Instead of having to fight with him everytime he steals something, you need to always keep a leash on him, and get him to the point where he is consistent on his basic commands. The commands we use most often around here are down, bring, come, and stay. A down is one of the more submissive positions that dogs can be placed in, and it seems harder for most dogs to break a down than it is for them to break a sit. If you can get him to "bring" consistently, you won't have to worry about getting the stolen items back, just have him bring them over to you. A good recall can be used in any situation, and should be second nature to the dog. Stay will let you call the dog over to someplace, put him in a down/stay, and walk over to pick the toy up. Demand that he follows every command precisively. Sit is also important, and can be used in most of the same places as a down, but all of our dogs will automatically sit if told to stay someplace, and I like downs better. The "heel" can also be used in place of "come" as when the dog is called to heel, it should automatically come around to your left side and sit. Anytime he starts to get out of hand, remove him from the situation and run him through some obedience.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sure you love this dog a great deal, but I can't imagine keeping this dog. It's beyond me why you would want to go through all this extensive behavior training for an unstable dog. That's what you have. You have no idea what caused this behavior, so you have no idea when it might just pop up again. Do you want to be in this situation again? I doubt it. You will never be able to trust that dog again in my opinion. This dog should definitely not be put up for adoption, that's just putting the burden on someone else. I know you don't want to hear it, and I expect to be criticized for saying it, but that dog needs a dirt nap plain and simple.

[pei obssessed]

Arggg... posts like this make me so angry :evil: Do you have a dog, Johnny? Supposing that you have one, can you imagine giving your dog a "dirt nap" (very unkind words, by the way) for having a behaviour problem that you haven't even looked into? You don't think it's fair to the poor dog that the problem is investigated with the help of a behaviourist, and solved if possible? Yes, YOU might not know what triggered this aggression episode, but a behaviourist would probbaly be able to tell far more...
I wouldn't dare tell anyone they should put their dog to sleep--just because it's such a personal decision... If Starfox thinks she and her family can handle this, and she loves Zebra enough to work with the help of a trainer (as she's already said), why say give the dog a "dirt nap"??????

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree with Pei! :evil: Very unkind indeed!
Although I agree a dog like that shouldn't be put up for adoption, which is why Hazel had to be PTS :cry: but I tried for three years to help that dog, and nothing worked. At least Zebra is TRYING! :evil: :evil: :drinking: