On Training... (LONG)

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, It took me FOREVER and a half to write this one thing out on my website about training... I got information from other trainers, and my previous experiance, as well as many books. Only half of it is up on the site because I never got it all posted, and then my computer crashed! :evilbat: Not only do I have to rewrite half of it, but I've been reading through it and not sure if I really like how it even is now! Here's what's there now, and I've highlighted and writen in BLUE what I don't like and in RED what I don't like about it... if you have any suggestions on how to change it, or what to add, PLEASE let me know! I'd love all the help possible! I don't want to be giving out faulse information, and since I'm not a proffesional dog trainer or anything, I don't have too much to back me up...

Okay, well first off we've got the long boring lectures to write out (hee hee, but they're informational) So, read on, and once you've got that all stored away, and have tried it on your dog, you can move onto the fun stuff! Or, if your dog already knows all that stuff, move on right away!

I have nothing against female dogs (owning one myself!) but to make it easier, instead of writing

[courtnek]

couple of things

I trained mine recall using long leads (40-50 feet) in my backyard originally. Neither of them are very good at it when loose, however. :oops: I think I need more work. But I used both praise and treats. They figured out long ago that I cant really catch them in the yard.
So for situations when I want them back NOW I use the command TREAT!

that will bring them back every time. I dont let them loose off lead, not yet, because they are labs and wandering is part of their nature. We are still in training mode however. I use TREAT as an emergency call, just in case. Otherwise I reward them with games and affection when they return willingly. Most of the time they do, but if they're in the yard chasing squirrels they tend to ignore me. They have learned to come back if they get out of the yard, which does happen sometimes. I intend to take them to the new dog walking park this summer and try them offlead.

But more work on it first! Training them takes long, because I work full time and it's dark 3/4 of the year when I get home....

so we're kinda stuck with weekends....

[Nancy B]

Well, I really can't help too much with suggestions since our training methods are so different. I'm a clicker trainer and I do use treats. I also prefer to "shape" the dogs behavior rather than demand that they assume a particular position (like heel).

I will say that I certainly don't think that using treats has impeeded my dogs progress or made them less reliable than if I had only used praise. After all, I compete in trials and I certainly can't use treats there.

[Mary's Mama]

Hi Hazel. I have to admit that I respectfully disagree with most of the information you provided.

I have some questions for you. Why are you putting this on a website? What experience do you have other than Hazel? Aren't you a fairly young person? Why do you feel you know enough about training to instruct someone else?

I do not intend those questions to be offensive just something for you to think about. I have trained 4 of my own dogs, each was different and their specific training required modification to their specific needs. I have never trained another persons dog. I have read countless articles, but I have never studied to be trainer or received any kind of certificate or degree for being one. I do not claim to know how to train a dog. I know what my dogs required but that simply isn't enough. So I would suggest that maybe you take a step back and think about whether the information you have to provide is valuable. Maybe if you work with other dogs, say volunteer at a shelter to train dogs, you will see that there is a reason why there are so many methods for training.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings or offended you, not my intention, just wanted to help you think it through.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok I read it and I have lots of suggestions so I'll just email it to you with an attatchment ok.

[DogPaddle]

oops that was me

[Guest Anonymous]

Court & Nancy - I know tones of people use tones of different methods, but these are just the methods I use. It states that on my site. I was also thinking of putting links up to different (GOOD) site that had different methods, but it's really hard to find some that are really good... it takes a lot of searching.

Mary - I've worked at Braside Kennels most summers, and whenever we go there to visit. I've also (helped) train my neighbor's dog for 3 years now, as well as my friend's dog (up until she died). I helped work with the dogs when at agility class, and have spoken to a LOT of the agility/flyball people when they came her a couple years back (got as much info outa them that I could in the short time they were here :lol: ) I have also worked with 4 of the 5 dogs we've had, owning 3 of them myself, the other was the "Family Dog" (then the 5th we had when I was only a couple years old). But I am DEFFENTLY NOT a proffessional! It also states that in bold letters on the front of my site. My methods have only changed a bit in the past two years with Hazel (But compared to when I trained my VERY first dog, they've changed a LOT) I have used these methods on a LOT of dogs, and they've all worked. I've only had to change them slightly, depending on the dog. It also states in that "document" that:
"> One thing to remember, is that all dogs are different, just like people, dogs all learn in different ways. "

DP - I e-mailed you back on that, the attatchment didn't work :o

[DogPaddle]

Darn.
I tried again, if it still doesn't show up right let me know, I'll get Pik to do it. :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

OKay... I'm reading it now... but not sure I understand a lot of what your saying! :lol: Like at one point you put "(for example)" in the pink... does that mean it could be removed? Or... ?
A lot of the things your correcting I should have seen myself! *DER* I constantly lecture my little neighbor about putting past tence and present tence in the same sentance, and here I did it myself! :lol:
Okay, I'll print it out, take some time today to make marks on it, review and ect. ect. then I'll probably e-mail you back tonight with what suggestions I've taken ect.

P.S.
Oh no, Pik's guna take a look at my graphics! :o I've seen his site, it's REALLY good, and it's taken my 3 years to get my site to a tolleratable place! It doesn't mean I LIKE it though! :lol: It's been taking a LONG time to get all the quirks outa my site as it is!! (I also have my personal webpage I look at too, and since I hate geocities, try not to go there often because it takes SO long, and I end up yelling at it in the end!) Also since Dad INSISTS we have dial-up :roll: it slows it down MORE... so it's been a LONG and horible process of trying to fix it up! (Also we don't have PSP5 and ANIMATION PSP on our comp right now, so there's always stuff I notice that needs fixin up, but can't do it!)

[gooeydog]

I don't agree with only using praise for a reward, as it can be nearly impossible to motivate some dogs off of only praise if you want to do serious training and get consistent results. Two of our dogs work mainly off of praise (one almost entirely), but I sporatically throw in other things so they never know what might happen if they do what I say (ie: most of the time when they listen, I'll just praise, etc, but sometimes I'll have a toy/treat with me and reward them with that instead. It keeps them interested and motivated. If you were out with Hazel, and she saw something she really wanted, took off after it, would you be able to get her back as she was in pursuit, with her knowing that the only thing she was going to get was praise? The other two dogs are working mainly off of food rewards, but they do the command before they ever even see the food, and they don't always get food for it, only for especially quick responses, etc. With Annie, I also do most of her training during our play sessions and runs in the field, because she gets bored with regular training sessions (and those are the situations in which I'm most likely to need her to listen). I also don't use whole sentences when I'm talking to them, as this isn't tea time, it's stuff that's important and may one day save their life, so I want to know that they're "clear" on everything I say and understand it. You also have to take into consideration that not everyone will want to/be able to use the same method of teaching the commands, and either add more ways, or links so they can read about other ways to teach. And you should also suggest that if they are having difficulty teaching their dog, to seek the help of a professional trainer, or a behaviorist if the problems are beyond the scope of a "regular" trainer.

[Guest Anonymous]

Goo- "If you were out with Hazel, and she saw something she really wanted, took off after it, would you be able to get her back as she was in pursuit, with her knowing that the only thing she was going to get was praise?" Wow, I've never thought of it like that :o Yeah, I'm going to add to use treats, but also about even amount of praise... you know? Or something like that... still working that factor out.
I am deffently going to suggest some books (if I find any good ones... a lot of the ones I have were only good to me because I was able to pick out things that would work with Hazel, or alter them in some ways, not all people can do that) and add some links. DP and I are working on it right now, so once we come to something we're both relitivly satisfied, I'll post it up here (again) for all to see and see if there's anything else that can be added/changed aight? (that doesn't mean I want to suggestions to stop though, keep 'em commin! :) )
Thanks once again guys!

Back in the day when my site was hideous and I hated it ( :lol: ) I didn't have the BASICS on there because those are the most important, and I was afraid of putting them up really, so I had a lot of how I train the FUN ones! My friend tried one of them with her Aussie and she said it worked really well, and it was one of the ones I completely made up how to train on my own... so yay! LOL That was great!

[Mary's Mama]

I'm sorry but I am just really confused.

Why should you be giving anyone advice if you can't even decide what advice you want to give?

While I can see you have spent time around dogs and other trainers, you by no means have experience. Before I use a trainer or read an article I try to find out what the credentials are to make sure I am listening to someone who KNOWS what they are talking about. Those people work real hard to get where they are and have years of hands on experience. When someone who knows very little, tries to put up information it almost undoes or at least invalidates the work those people have done. I think we should have more respect for the trainers that worked hard to become respected and leave all training tips and information to them. JMHO

[Guest Anonymous]

Mary - it's not like I'm just blabbing away about nothing... if you'd like, I could leave it how it was? Doesn't it at least show something that I'm asking what others think about it, to improve it for the veiwers of my site? I'm putting my methods up, because I know they work, and there are a lot of websites out there that BS about something they themselves aren't sure theirs talkinga bout! I in no means am doing that! It clearly states on my site that I'm NOT a professional, which means, if you don't want to read what I have writen, and at least take in my methodes fine! You don't HAVE TO! People who come to my site do not HAVE TO use what I say! They can however take in this information to compare to how other's train their dogs, which is why I will put up links and suggest books! If you feel that strongly that my training is no good, then DON'T READ IT! Obviously your someone who puts a LOT of thought into training your dogs, which is GREAT! And is also why there are so many methodes out there! So you can compare them all, and take in what information you find you useful to yourself... if you don't find it useful, DON'T READ IT!

[Mary's Mama]

Sorry I made you upset. I just want you to understand that it maybe possible for you to put anything you want on the web but that doesn't make it right. I read a quote somewhere that said something to the effect of "Better to be silent and thought of as the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

[bk_blue]

Hazel, keep up the good work. Learning is great and I think it's better to ask questions and get great advice from people here on how to improve your training tips, rather than just bully on ahead and possibly make mistakes. :) There are so many methods of training and we all have our personal choices, if you find something that works and is not abusive towards the dog then stick with it. :wink:

[Nancy B]

Hazel,
I'm gonna attempt to explain my thoughts. Please don't be offended, I'm really don't want to do that but I would like you to consider a few things that perhaps you haven't.

I've been an agility instructor for several years. I really don't know how many different dogs have been in my classes, maybe 100 maybe more. In that time I've had owners who are very dog savy, owners who don't have a clue but are really wanting to learn and owners who don't have a clue and really don't give a darn as long as they can "make" a dog do as they want.

Just as every dog has to be treated as an individual, so does every owner. I have a fairly extensive website with pages for agility and obedience. At the bottom of those pages I have provided links to sites with training information but, I have purposesly not offered step by step training advise. There is a reason.

Your methods work very well for you as my methods work for me. In presenting a "step-by-step how to train" on your website you're making the basic assumption that anyone who reads it and decides to use it will also make modifications to it if it's necessary for their dogs. I'm sorry, but my experience as an instructor doesn't support that. In fact the more dog savy folks would probably have invested in a book or two so it would be the ones who really aren't dog savy trying to use your training advise. Now, this is the part that I think can be potentially harmful. A person who isn't very knowledgable about dog behavior may take your instructions as a step-by-step "bible" and not realize that, if their dog requires it, some adjustments may need to be made. Dogs are different...soft dogs, hard dogs, dogs with issues....training may be similar for dogs but, adjustments usually have to be made. If adjustments are not made and a training program that you outlined in a step by step format fails to work with that particular dog there may be consequences for that dog. The owner may get frustrated....

Most folks who offer step-by step advise on dog training try to anticipate all possible consequences and address them...they write books. Yes, it takes a lot of space to cover most of the bases. Books still can't cover them all but they're pretty good.

I think it's admirable to offer training assistance on your website. I just think that it would be better to offer links to some of the major dog training websites and perhaps, a list of recommended books. There are a lot of good training websites out there that were put together and are maintained by folks who have put their lives into dog training....and written the books to prove it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Nancy, I totally understand, and I guess you didn't read everything I wrote when you wrote:

I just think that it would be better to offer links to some of the major dog training websites and perhaps, a list of recommended books. There are a lot of good training websites out there that were put together and are maintained by folks who have put their lives into dog training....and written the books to prove it.

I am going to add those! I said that here....

I am deffently going to suggest some books (if I find any good ones... a lot of the ones I have were only good to me because I was able to pick out things that would work with Hazel, or alter them in some ways, not all people can do that) and add some links.

I'll see if I can even put more books and links then my methodes! :lol:

[Nancy B]

[quote name='HazelNutMeg']Nancy, I totally understand, and I guess you didn't read everything I wrote when you wrote:

I just think that it would be better to offer links to some of the major dog training websites and perhaps, a list of recommended books. There are a lot of good training websites out there that were put together and are maintained by folks who have put their lives into dog training....and written the books to prove it.

I am going to add those! I said that here....

I am deffently going to suggest some books (if I find any good ones... a lot of the ones I have were only good to me because I was able to pick out things that would work with Hazel, or alter them in some ways, not all people can do that) and add some links.

I'll see if I can even put more books and links then my methodes! :lol:

I read and understood what you had posted just fine. I stand by my post above.

For persons who are not very knowledgable about dog behavior and training, even if you post links and/or books, why would they want to look elsewhere when they've found a handy step-by-step guide on your website?

[gooeydog]

I agree with Nancy B... sure, some people are going to read through your site and then continue on to the other links or buy some books, but there will always be others who will look at it, say "well, if it worked for her dog, then it better work for mine", and use what you've written without any consideration as to whether it fits their dogs' needs or not, either because they're too lazy to do more research, or too ignorant to know that they should. Then who knows what will happen if your choice of methods don't fit their dogs... but we all know who will end up paying the price.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am not a professional by any means but ithere is a great deal of validity in the tips you recieved from Goo. I am the resident dog trainer for the entire family and most of my eighborhood. so i spend a great deal of time looking into training tips and reading different books. the one thing that almost all trainers agree with is that you need to switch it up on your dog, if you only praise or only treat or only throw a ball or toy your dogs gets bored with it. you have to interchange and at times go all out. its the same effect that gambling has for humans, its not knowing how big the pot is going to be and that keeps your dog interested. Then as they get more reliable to the tasks you can reduce to pets and praise but until initailly you want the precision and preformance. So you do what is neccesary to get your dog to succeed. it keeps training fun. You will also want to add side notes about negative reinforcement, it turns the tide of training and will make most dogs shut down completely. Instead use positioning and praise.

There are so many dog personalities you have to change every approach to the dog and what turns them on. Some are more food oriented where others are more apt to do tricks for a ball, or for a neck scratch. you have to spend time with the owner and the dog before you can tell what exactly will get it to preform.
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