imported_Foster Posted January 22, 2003 Posted January 22, 2003 Well the whole poodle thing got me to thinking. I was wondering what people thought about starting a new discussion. A discussion on the purposeful breeding of border collies to jack russells (borderjacks) and the breeding of border terriers to border collies (border borders) for doggie sports? These people want the brains of the border collie but the smaller height of the JRT and BT...this seems to be a big thing in flyball. I am not sure how I feel considering I think there are enough dogs in the world without breeding mutts. The difference between these breedings and breeding the poodle mixes, lab mixes, etc...is these breedings are for a particular purpose. I know someone who breeds borderjacks and they seem to be great dogs and I would love to have one but even if I could have another dog I don't think I could bring myself to buy a borderjack from a breeder. I either rescue my pups or I go to a breeder if I want a purebred. I just don't know what I would do if I had the choice. I can sit here a rationalize reasons for and against but I just thought I would ask those people who aren't into the whole doggie sport world like I am. I do flyball and I am quite addicted to it. I keep flip flopping on my thinking. I met a borderjack that I would steal in a heart beat. Quote
Black GSD Posted January 22, 2003 Posted January 22, 2003 Personally I think, "If someone wants a smaller Border Collie, get a small Border Collie. That is a "No Brainer" as far as I am concerned. What ever happened to having a "smaller" dog (Like a JRT) on the team so that the jumps are shorter? That doesn't mean that all of the dogs have to be small. I guess I just don't understand peoples thinking. (I am not talking about you. I am talking about the individuals that breed MUTTS! No matter what their reason.) :evil: Personally I can see no RATIONAL reason for this. By the way, the breeders of the Poodle mixes TRY to rationalize their breedings too. Meaning as far as THEY are concerned, they breed the "poos" for a REASON. Quote
alicat613 Posted January 22, 2003 Posted January 22, 2003 I think this is a wonderful idea! After all these people desperate for a mixed breed to compete with go get one from the shelter, and eventually all the shelters are empty and all the dogs in the world have great homes, then sure, breeding mixed breeds would be great. But first I think the world needs to take care of the ones we already have, all the sad furry babies in need of homes and love and treats. Quote
eggrolyn1223 Posted January 22, 2003 Posted January 22, 2003 I think people should just STOP breeding now..and this is even more true for mixes.. :x There is no reason for breeding mixes AGAIN...just because people want better dogs for flyball...people should respect animals like they would respect humans..only selfish people would breed like that..wanting only for themselves and not caring about others around them.. :evil: Quote
imported_Foster Posted January 23, 2003 Author Posted January 23, 2003 The problem is that many border collies are not small enough to bring down the jump height to what they want. The folks I am talking about are very competitive folks who want the fastest dogs which is why they are breeding these mutts. I understand their thinking just don't agree with it. They want to be the world record holders. They still have the chance for a bc brain but just in a smaller body...It seems the ideal jump height is below 12 inches. You take the height of the smallest dog on the team and measure them at the withers and then subtract 4 inches to get the jump height to a minimum of 8 in and max of 16...just a little background. If I want a height dog for flyball I would go out and buy one that small, ie: my mini poodle. He is a pet first but I decided to train him for flyball. He is doing great but is not super fast but that is ok with me. I don't plan to ever make racing news. And if he would have been a flyball dropout, so be it. He would still be my best little buddy. I am actually afraid that poodles may become popular in flyball and then people would want to start breeding poodles and bc's... Quote
Hobbit Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 alicat613 napisał(a):I think this is a wonderful idea! After all these people desperate for a mixed breed to compete with go get one from the shelter, and eventually all the shelters are empty and all the dogs in the world have great homes, then sure, breeding mixed breeds would be great. But first I think the world needs to take care of the ones we already have, all the sad furry babies in need of homes and love and treats. Ali --- they are breeding these mixed breeds ON PURPOSE. They aren't getting them from shelters. Quote
Hobbit Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 People that cross anything with the Border Collie absolutely P+SS me off to the ends of the earth. The sports people are in the same category as the show breeders who care nothing about the *HERDING* ability of the herding dog. People as myself and others are spending YEARS nurturing, selectively breeding, genetically breeding the herding dog to do what they were "created" to do --- HERD LIVESTOCK. And the sports people, NOT CARING ONE BIT, are coming along and just breeding to whatever will run the fastest. What do they do with the puppies that don't make it in flyball? Do they keep them as pets? Do they sell them to pet families? How many of these crosses have ended up at the shelter because the *PET* family couldn't handle a JRT/BC --- the combination spells disaster! Quote
DogPaddle Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 The problem is that many border collies are not small enough to bring down the jump height to what they want. The folks I am talking about are very competitive folks who want the fastest dogs which is why they are breeding these mutts. Hmm, I was just thinking its sortof strange that something that developed as something a loving dog owner could do with their pet for fun, excercise and competition is becoming the reason to produce a dog a certain way. I may be set in my ways but to me that way of thinking is backwards. If people desperately want a certain cross they can search through things like petfinder, there is no need to create another "designer dog". Quote
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 Well the guy we got Hazel from a guy who breeds Border Collies + Australian Shepherds for herding only... we were like the only people who got her for being just a "pet". I sometimes wonder if that's why she's always in trouble, she needs to be working, she wasn't ment to be a pet... the breeder should have told us that, because my mom spoke with him, and said we wouldn't be using her for herding. :( But since the Aussie and BC are pretty simular breeds, I think it's great to breed them for herding, and since their both such good herding breeds too. Quote
Hobbit Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 HazelNutMeg napisał(a):Well the guy we got Hazel from a guy who breeds Border Collies + Australian Shepherds for herding only... we were like the only people who got her for being just a "pet". I sometimes wonder if that's why she's always in trouble, she needs to be working, she wasn't ment to be a pet... the breeder should have told us that, because my mom spoke with him, and said we wouldn't be using her for herding. :( But since the Aussie and BC are pretty simular breeds, I think it's great to breed them for herding, and since their both such good herding breeds too. Unfortunately, both breeds are being bred for *looks* and *flyball* over herding ability. This is slowly producing a breed of dog that no longer has the herding instinct that it once had. Thus, there will be "working Border Collies" and "show Border Collies". The split in the breed has already begun. Quote
DogPaddle Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 The split between working and nonworking BC lines is well under way here. Generally both camps are fairly responsible about ensuring working dogs go to working environments and nonworking dogs are not purchased by people who need to rely on the dog to work livestock. I still think many people who take on non-working BCs are not prepared for the drive to do something and intensity of these dogs but that is another issue. Hobbit - Are you concerned that with the split into working and non-working BCs there will not be enough working dogs to fill the need or that the split will not be complete enough and the working traits of BCs will be compromised? As to Hazel it sounds like she was from working lines and sent to a pet home and that could be a bit of an issue. If so Hazel would definately need some serious outlet for her drive/energy. Quote
alicat613 Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 Hobbit napisał(a):alicat613 napisał(a):I think this is a wonderful idea! After all these people desperate for a mixed breed to compete with go get one from the shelter, and eventually all the shelters are empty and all the dogs in the world have great homes, then sure, breeding mixed breeds would be great. But first I think the world needs to take care of the ones we already have, all the sad furry babies in need of homes and love and treats. Ali --- they are breeding these mixed breeds ON PURPOSE. They aren't getting them from shelters. I think my sarcasm went unnoticed... :D My point was, first empty out the shelters. There are plenty of mixed breeds out there in need of homes, purebreds too, that can fit these desires. Once the shelters - ALL the shelters - are empty, and all the little doggies have homes...sure breed mixed breeds! But until that day comes that there are no dogs in need of homes, go to a shelter. Quote
Hobbit Posted January 24, 2003 Posted January 24, 2003 [quote name='DogPaddle']The split between working and nonworking BC lines is well under way here. Generally both camps are fairly responsible about ensuring working dogs go to working environments and nonworking dogs are not purchased by people who need to rely on the dog to work livestock. Mostly that is what is happening here in the US. Unfortunately, some of the working dog breeders are starting to sell their working dogs to non-working families, because they can get more money from them. Sad, but true. AND yes, that does make them "in it for the money". I still think many people who take on non-working BCs are not prepared for the drive to do something and intensity of these dogs but that is another issue. That is true, very true. Hobbit - Are you concerned that with the split into working and non-working BCs there will not be enough working dogs to fill the need or that the split will not be complete enough and the working traits of BCs will be compromised? A little of both, more the later. There will always be good working dogs available from people that actually work their dogs for a living. If the economy continues to get worse, there is always the threat of them selling to non-working families --- because of the money issue. As to Hazel it sounds like she was from working lines and sent to a pet home and that could be a bit of an issue. If so Hazel would definately need some serious outlet for her drive/energy. Quote
ShadyLady Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 Call me silly or whatever but if you cross a b/c with jack/r who is to say that the pups wont look like a border with the brain of a j/r .Genetically this would be possible ????? :o Quote
DogPaddle Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 :lol: Yes it would be possible, also possible for some traits to be not exactly like either dog or partway inbetween. Hmmm - jack russel legs, border collie fur, jack russel brain, border collie intensity etc would be a strange dificult little dog. Quote
yellowlabsrule Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 DogPaddle napisał(a)::lol: Yes it would be possible, also possible for some traits to be not exactly like either dog or partway inbetween. Hmmm - jack russel legs, border collie fur, jack russel brain, border collie intensity etc would be a strange dificult little dog. :o Sound horrible to me! :o Attack of the Jack Collie!! :lol: Quote
Black GSD Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 DogPaddle napisał(a)::lol: Yes it would be possible, also possible for some traits to be not exactly like either dog or partway inbetween. Hmmm - jack russel legs, border collie fur, jack russel brain, border collie intensity etc would be a strange dificult little dog. Not only that, but it would probably either try to herd rats or kill sheep. :D :lol: :roflt: Quote
ShadyLady Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Now there's a new sport j/russels herding mice :D :P :P :P Quote
Pumpkin the musher Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 I guess I'll have to add my two cents here. Most professional dogsledders have added various breeds to the mix to try to improve the working ability of the various strains of Alaskan Huskies used in dogsledding-most notably greyhounds , irish setters, and various hound breeds in the 50's, but the latest addition are German shorthairs- and they are fast some open class teams are averaging over 20 miles per hour. I'm not sure I agree -they are very hard to keep warm and their feet are notoriously tender. I did purchase an Alaskan last year that had Border Collie in his backround-(sorry! to those who disapprove, but I could'nt resist. He is the sweetest, most itelligent lead dog I've ever owned, a beautiful red and white with blue eyes. I love him, but would never add Border collie to my dogs intentionally. I bought him because he was and is an excellent sled dog! Quote
imported_Foster Posted January 30, 2003 Author Posted January 30, 2003 The pictures you all are giving me of jrt's herding mice...makes me wanna :drinking: Just like with any breeding you never know what you will really get. And many times the border collie and jrt breedings are for height dogs but you don't always get that. And when that happens, the breeder will try to find it a suitable home as a big dog... I only know this stuff because I know someone who does it...she breeds AKC show border collies and versatility border collies. And she dapples with the purposeful mix breeding in order to get faster height dogs. I don't condone these breedings but they are going to happen and will always happen. I do give this person credit because she finds suitable homes for all the dogs and if the home does not work out, she will take the dog back and either keep it or try and rehome it. She checks in periodically with all the owners and if she feels that you have not lived up to the agreement, she will take the dog from you. She has done this before. She removed a dog from a home that did not care for the dog properly. She is a good breeder but she dapples with the mix breeding so I don't know what to think. I agree that all this breeding is bad but I can also see the other side sort of... Oh well...I will never breed so I don't have to worry about that part... Quote
DogPaddle Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 So she is breeding border collies and mixes and the ones that don't work out go to pet homes. Nope. No good. You do not breed dogs hoping you will get what you want and finding someplace for the refuse. You breed dogs with the best possible examples of the breed you are working with, knowing what you will get - the breed standard most likely. You breed knowing that every dog in your litter will definately have a home that wants precisely what the dog will be. You do not breed a litter to get a few dogs that some people want for their hobby and then try to place the other dogs in homes that could have been for shelter/rescue dogs. How many dogs does she have? Quote
imported_Foster Posted January 31, 2003 Author Posted January 31, 2003 Before she breeds she has confirmed homes for the purebreds and her borderjacks. I am not condoning the practice but unfortunately, there are many folks out there that are breeding borderjacks and border borders. She has many dogs but I am not sure how many are hers. She takes in people's dogs and trains them in obedience, flyball and agility. She also takes in rescues and finds homes for them. So she does do her good deeds too. Her borderjacks are placed in sport homes only. Many of her border collies are placed in only sport/working homes. She does not place dogs in pet homes usually. I am not defending her and I don't think she should be breeding mixes but at least she is responsible about it. Quote
Pumpkin the musher Posted January 31, 2003 Posted January 31, 2003 I agree with keeping working minded dogs out of pet homes- Alaskans are very similar to BC's in that they have an incredibly high energy level. Since I began dogsledding in 1979, I've only produced 2 litters of puppies- most of which I kept and those pups that did'nt appear to fit with my existing teams went to other mushers tha I knew personally.The biggest reason a certain pup would'nt fit would be size/gait related . Most of my guys average around 55 lbs, and my last litter had one little female who topped out at 40 lbs. She is running now with a sprint team of similar sized dogs. Occasionally there are dogs who love to pull, but not at the same level as the majority of the team. those dogs go to recreational mushers who use their dogs for winter camping, backcountry fishing expeditions or just running the local trails at a leisurely pace. Quote
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