Debarkening, why?

[Marble]

All I have to say is Amen to Wildbunch and Hobbit, and today I was outdoors and ENJOYING Dresdens deepening bark, it IS a lovely sound. She and Lady were alerting me to an invading yellow lab from the south....

[wildbunch]

Okay so you believe everything else is cruel, don't you think forcing a dog to go under the knife is cruel. Every time you put a dog under you are taking the chance of not getting the dog back. You have to take this seriously.
Here's a solution; a humane muzzle.
With the humane muzzle the dog can pant, eat, drink, etc. but cannot bark or bite (can nip).
I agree Hobbit, you should NEVER let anyone make your decisions for you. I refuse to move anywhere that is not dog friendly. All of my neighbors have dogs and I will always live in areas where dogs are an accepted part of every day life.
Also when you purchase/adopt a dog aren't you accepting the responsibility and expecting to have to make some sacrifices. Dogs are for life, not a fleeting fancy.
Neuter/Spay is for population control ONLY. No one should use these surgeries to control certain behaviours, many dogs have the same behaviours after the surgery. If you have a problem with something your dog does, GO TO A TRAINER. Read, study, educate yourself. Understand your dog. Why is your dog exhibiting this behaviour? Correct the behaviour, don't expect surgery to be your answer.

Hobbit, :wink: my husband and I and our three dogs have singing lessons almost every day. The dogs think it is so much fun. Our dane is trying to learn to howl now, funniest thing I've ever seen (heard).
My mals voice is the most beautiful thing and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[Hobbit]

I've heard that Mal's have a wide range of "voice". It's music, to me.

[Horsefeathers!]

Ruh roh. I have to don my official Devil's Advocate cap here.

I really can see where Poofy is coming from. I do not necessarily agree with debarking for the sake of convenience, BUT I can see where it may have its place.

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for training and correction being the ideal choice, but I have to admit that, regardless of the circumstances, I would rather see a dog debarked than euthanized in a shelter for that behavior. Please understand that my first option would be for every single pet owner to be responsible, but sometimes you have to settle for the lesser of two evils. Too many dogs die in shelters each year and, many are there for barking, and as bad as I hate to say this, I would rather see these dogs debarked than killed.

I also have a problem with thinking that people should ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT be able to move into a dog friendly place. While I think that is a noble goal, I can think of several circumstances that might necessitate a quick move into the first thing available and lugging the dog with them. I dunno... I just have a problem with ALWAYS and NEVER, I guess. I can see where someone might have to bail out of somewhere in a hurry (battered wife maybe), taking the dog with them. They might have to take the first place available to them with no regard to whether it is a pet friendly place. If it means being able to keep their dog vs being forced into relinquishing him in order to keep them both from being homeless, well, it's just something I would rather see happen than another dog at the shelter.

Keep in mind my debate is with ALWAYS and NEVER. I still am not saying I advocate debarking just for the sake of convenience. Just that sometimes doo doo happens.

It would be great if EVERYONE were able (or willing) to train away undesirable behaviors, or if EVERYONE fully researched their breed of choice before acquiring one, but we all know what happens way too often.

If it meant keeping the dog out of the shelter, well....

Don't think for one minute that I don't get angry, too, at irresponsible decisions.

Just to step a little closer to the line of fire, I also LOATHE shock collars and IF it ever came down to it that I were forced to choose, I would choose the debarking as the lesser of the two evils.

Very genuine disclaimer... I've never had any of my dogs debarked or even been put into a position to consider it.

[wildbunch]

HF,

What you said makes sense and yes in dire straights I can see how it could be a good thing. I hate the electric bark collars as they can be activated by a vibration, whine, yelp, etc. A friend of ours in Wyoming put one on his dog, unfortunately every time a snowmobile came by it would set off the collar. We had a very hard time retraining him to ride a snowmobile.
I just strongly believe that debarking a dog should be a last resort absolutely nothing is working, will have to get rid of the dog, kind of situation.
I wish we lived in a better world but wishing won't get us anywhere.
I just hope we can try to convince some readers that there are other alternatives. I guess I'm wierd and I live in a wierd neighborhood because all the dogs bark at some point(every person in our neighborhood has a dog). Does anybody really care, No! Dogs will be dogs.
I guess I really don't have room to say who should move where, I have three very large dogs and I rent. I am very picky about my homes and where they are located. I choose locations easier on the dogs, not easier on the gas mileage. There is no way I could ever live in an apartment so I can't say what that lifestyle is like. (No apartment complex would have me :lol: ) We always put our dogs needs before our own.
Okay I'm not gonna say anymore cause I'll just get myself in hot water so let's just leave it at -everyone has a right to their own opinion!

[Poofy]

"Okay so you believe everything else is cruel, don't you think forcing a dog to go under the knife is cruel. Every time you put a dog under you are taking the chance of not getting the dog back. You have to take this seriously.
Here's a solution; a humane muzzle.
With the humane muzzle the dog can pant, eat, drink, etc. but cannot bark or bite (can nip). "


Oh please...so are you against spay/neutering too? Debarking can and is done with very little anestesia, heck do it while your dog gets it teeth cleaned. They also do not "cut" the dog's throat open, they go in through the mouth and clip the vocal cords. Its quick, there is little to no bleeding, and the dog can go home the same day.

Oh sure...like that is REALLy gonna stop a dog from barking...only in your dreams. Dogs who are muzzled learn other ways of making noise...they learn to scream..and if they can get their mouth open enough to eat...then they can bark.


Another said:

Dogs do not care if they can bark. "Please tell me how YOU know this?"


Because the behavior of the dog is not changed, verses the behavior of a dog who has been corrected for the action. you rescue enough pyrs with burn holes in their necks and you would not even ask me this question.
I have a friend who breeds and shows collies...her dogs...ALL OF HER DOGS are debarked. Why? you try living with ten dogs who bark none stop, day and night, no matter wether they are inside are out, its 9 am or 1 am at night...if they are awake..they are barking. No one, who can hear, could live with that.


"Deaf dogs can not hear, therefore; they bark loudly. Dogs can be taught to bark softly, at least mine can and have. I've heard dogs bark softly and very loudly, depending on what they are barking at, the level of their stress, or competition. "


Some dogs can be taught not to bark, even to adjust volume..but some CANNOT BE TAUGHT THIS... Some breeds, that are thousands of years old...or so bred for the action, cannot be rewired through training. It is not going to happen! Deaf or hearing...some breeds just have incredibly loud barks.


"Maybe, but it's done because they do not want to take the time to teach the dog not to bark loudly. "

Maybe its done because they are not some looser jerk that will dump a dog when they realize it can't be taught to not do what it was bred to do.


"WHAT? So a genetic trait to bite is cruel to try and correct because the dog doesn't understand? It's the same thing. There are various things that a person can do to get the dog not to bark. "

If a dog is genetically programmed to BITE then it is not a pet and does not belong as one. BITING is often the result of frustration or poorly directed drive, or sever behaviro problems. Very, very different. I do not know of any breed "bred" to BITE. But I am sure you will think up one, and I am sure the breeders of that breed would probably have a fit as well. There are breeds bred to be dog agressive, breeds bred to take down game, but not bred to BITE...

"That is the shortcoming of the handler. If done correctly. There are ways to correct a bark without harm to the dog (mentally). Teach the dog to bark on command, then be silent. Teach him to bark softly --- it can be done with patience"

What do you do when you are not there to exert that control? Are you going to baby sit the dog every moment of its life for the rest of its life? I don't think so. You have to sleep...you have to have a job... What about dogs that don't take human control? Such as the large guardian breeds? Pyrs, marammer, kuvas, and the many others...they couldn't give a rat's butt what you wanted...they have a job to do...and that is to warn off predators...which means BARKING.


" Even being debarked, MANY still make some sort of noise. NOISE is NOISE to many neighbors, regardless of the level of pitch or decimal"

Yes they do...but the noise level is tollerable...it does not penetrate walls, echo down the road, for every one within half a mile to hear.
You can play your radio in your home at a level that will not disturb your neighbors...or you can crank it up and have the police called on you.

"Neutering and spaying does NOT stop all these behaviors. It only stops reproduction. Many neutered dogs still mark, still roam, still hump, still display dominance behavior. Many females are still just as dominant as before"

It WILL stop those behaviors if it is done prepubescently. Only on very, very rare occasions, will a male, neutered prepubescently, try to breed a female in heat...and she would absolutely have to antagonize him.
The early s/n cuts down on about 90% of those behaviors...just as debarking will stop about 90% of the problem.
humping due to dominance will not stop, but humping due to sexual frustration, should never begin.

"That is debatable. MANY dogs still end up at the shelter for lots of other reasons....many times it's the owners inability to manage or handle the dog. "

The NUMBER ONE reason why Large Guardian breeds, collies, shelties, GSDs, Dobes, wind up in shelter is BARKING to much. Having filled out hundreds of "why did you turn your dog in" reports..I do know this for a fact.




" do not agree with debarking a dog. Dogs bark because of emotion, expression and communication. We may not understand it, but they are always telling us or other dogs what is going on"


Dogs do not communicate through voice, like people do. They do not rely on voice. Dogs communicate, firstly, through body language, which is the first thing to be altered when you "correct" barking. Second through scent, and lastly vocalization. Vocalization is usually reserved for long distance communication...


"Come on people, research your breeds. Also moving is not an excuse.
Before you move into a new home check out your neighborhood."

Some people, due to job changes and or military moving, do not have that luxuary. You may also move to a great place...then suddenly get crappy neighbors.


"Keep your dog inside at night so it won't bark all night."

This will work sometimes...or you could wind up staying up all night listening to your dog bark.


"Find a breeder, go to a show, find someone who has that breed and spend some time with them. Most good people will be honest about the breeds faults. If you can't find anyone, find a breed specific forum and ask them. "

Yes do that...talk to the breeders, go to shows...and you will be suprised how many of them have debarked their dogs. The people that KNOW AND UNDERSTAND the breed. The people that are responsible for its well being....yes, they DEBARK their dogs.

[Guest Anonymous]

It does not take a genius to understand me saying to "look before you speak." I see no reason to debark, move, keep fewer dogs, teach them not to bark, lots of ways to correct the problem.
What I said is, if anyone thinks only puppy mills do uncaring things to their dogs you are way off base. I believe the psoter wrote Liver shunt-puppy mills, debarking-puppy mills, no doubt, but that ain't all folks!

[Hobbit]

="Poofy


What do you do when you are not there to exert that control? Are you going to baby sit the dog every moment of its life for the rest of its life? I don't think so. You have to sleep...you have to have a job... What about dogs that don't take human control? Such as the large guardian breeds? Pyrs, marammer, kuvas, and the many others...they couldn't give a rat's butt what you wanted...they have a job to do...and that is to warn off predators...which means BARKING.

I DO have guardian dogs. I have guardian dogs because of what they were bred to do.....guard, as in livestock. The do not bark non-stop, only when they preceive something is a threat.

Debark because you can and want to. Too many do it because they don't want to take the time with dog, it's an easy way out.

[Hobbit]

Butterfly napisał(a):

It does not take a genius to understand me saying to "look before you speak." I see no reason to debark, move, keep fewer dogs, teach them not to bark, lots of ways to correct the problem.
What I said is, if anyone thinks only puppy mills do uncaring things to their dogs you are way off base. I believe the psoter wrote Liver shunt-puppy mills, debarking-puppy mills, no doubt, but that ain't all folks!

:drinking: .....lots of people are cruel to their dogs.

[wildbunch]

Poofy,

Anesthesia is very dangerous for all living things, even in small doses. I almost lost my malamute because he is so sensitive to it. Quick thinking on my vets part saved him. I had all three of my dogs tested so that if an emergency arises I can give the emergency clinic a form with the proper doses on it. If your clinic offers it I highly suggest having it done before it's too late.
Yes, I believe all pets should be spayed/neutered. It IS absolutely necessary in order to control the dog population. There is a risk involved which is why you sign a waiver when taking your dog in.
I don't understand what you mean by a dog that won't accept human control. Any dog can learn. They do have intelligence. I train mine with vocalization and hand and body signals. I always take my dogs to obedience classes as this aids with socialization and a better understanding of the individual dogs working mind.
Emotion Vocalization: well if dogs don't vocalize their emotions then my dogs are way off kilter. All three of them vocalize concern, regret, happiness, etc..
Our dane is 5 months old and recognizes the speak and No Bark or Hush commands.
As I said before, we are all entitled to our opinions and I for one do not care for debarking a dog! My dogs will never see that procedure. There we're done, enough said.

P.S. If a person moved into our neighborhood who didn't care for dogs or their barking they would have to deal with about 50 homeowners. That's quite a battle.

[Poofy]

You asked

"I'm not trying to be funny or argumentative, but why did your friend choose to breed and show collies? They are well known for barking A LOT."


She has had collies for over 50 years. And many years ago people were not the same as they are now. Today people will shoot your dog for barking. She debarks to keep her neighbors from complaining. No matter where you are, uless you are centered on 100 acres, 10 collies barking, goes a loooog ways.

Anothe wrote

"I see no reason to debark,"

And there are those who see no reason to spay neuter too, keep their dogs contained, put them on heart worm prevention, take them to obedience...etc..etc...


"move,"


Oh goody, you plan on buying her a new house. I am sure she will gladly move to a nice 100 acre secluded area, if your buying. GET REAL


"keep fewer dogs,"


You cannot have a decent breeding program if you don't have dogs. Sure you can "pretend" you are actually doing something...but most breeding programs require 2-3 litters a year to actually GET any where, that is if you actually have goals.


"teach them not to bark,"

HAHAHAHAHAAH you are sooooo funny. NOT all dogs can be taught not to bark.

"lots of ways to correct the problem."

Sure...and one way is DEBARKING the dog.




Another wrote

"I DO have guardian dogs. I have guardian dogs because of what they were bred to do.....guard, as in livestock. The do not bark non-stop, only when they preceive something is a threat. "

Your right...they usually only bark when they percive a threat. Guardian dogs are not (usually) recreational barkers....but they bark at predators (or what they percieve as a threat), the mail man, the birds in the sky, the trash bag blowing in the wind....Butterfly farts.
It would be nice if people would research LGD's before they buy them (and other breeds). But sadly most don't. I would rather see these dogs debarked, then subjected to shock collars or being hit or locked up...or worse...loose their homes and wind up on death row.
Also...your dogs probably don't bark that much to YOU...but your neighbors (if you have any) may feel differently. I only have one pyr at home now, he is old and crippled. When I run them with livestock for training, or had them to guard what I had, I would listen to them all night long, barking as they patrolled. I liked the sound...my neighbors, who were acres away, did not.



Another wrote

"Anesthesia is very dangerous for all living things, even in small doses. I almost lost my malamute because he is so sensitive to it. "


I never said there was not a risk. But we take that risk when ever we spay/neuter, when ever we clean teeth, etc. Debarking could be done, when one of those other procedures are being done. Trying to rehome a problem barker is a much greater risk...


" don't understand what you mean by a dog that won't accept human control. Any dog can learn."

LGDs are bred to be self thinkers. They are bred to be taken out into a pasture and release with the livestock, to remain out there and make descisions about what has to be done. LGDs do not make good obedience dogs for this reason. Teaching them to heal, when they feel they need to walk out front of behind. Most can NEVER be trusted off leash, because they will not come when called. There are those who do obedience and have been successful with it, achieving titles, but most NEVER get any where because these dogs are hard wired to be independant self thinkers...its about like trying to train a cat. Other dogs can just be plain stubborn...it just doesn't CLICK in their heads as to WHY you are correcting them.


You said

"Emotion Vocalization: well if dogs don't vocalize their emotions then my dogs are way off kilter. All three of them vocalize concern, regret, happiness, etc.. "


Well I also never said they did not do this...but vocalization is still not the main thing for dogs. You notice the sound, because human being rely on voice A LOT more then dogs. Dogs RELY on body language and smell before sound.


"As I said before, we are all entitled to our opinions and I for one do not care for debarking a dog! My dogs will never see that procedure. There we're done, enough said. "

GOOD for you. I am glad you have things under control I think the problem here is you people think I am saying debark all dogs...that is NOT what I am saying. I have many dogs of my own, I also have neighbors. I have NEVER debarked one of my own dogs. I would not want to have to debark them. But if it meant debarking them, to keep them, by golly I would debark them.

"P.S. If a person moved into our neighborhood who didn't care for dogs or their barking they would have to deal with about 50 homeowners. That's quite a battle"

When people get really pissed, they won't DEAL with the home owners..they wil DEAL with the dogs. When they get mad enough to start poisoning dogs it will be the DOGS who will pay.

[Guest Anonymous]

Maybee I should clearify myself about what I meant with "teaching the dog not to bark while your away"

We call it "lonliness training" in sweden and it is not only meant to solve the bark problem, but also to make your dog comfortable with being alone for some time.

It is not about unpleasant corrections, or smell/shoch collars. Eg you start with teaching your dog to be in a different room than you, and if neccecery with a se through fence, so that it can keep an eye on thing without being present, then maybe fence+ half closed door, and than closed to devolop into you leaving the house/ap for short moment. Also if the dog behaves as you wish (while youre hiding outside or something) there are treats for it...

If the case is that some breeds never shut up, it is exremly important that the breeders mention this to the buyer, and if that is not the case, well then it should come to the kennelclubs attention.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, the phase is THINK before you speak, bUT you missed my point...we need to LOOK before we speak when commenting on things, don't you think? I can sit in my comfortable house and post all day about things I know nothing about. Get out and SEE (look) talk to actual breeders, see the conditons under which the dogs live. Do not put everyone in the same bag. Don't take anyones word for it either. I see breeders put breeders down for doing the very same thing they are doing, but because they show, they set themselves apart. Being a judge for many years gave me first hand knowledge how two-faced people can be. I helped close a show kennel where the dogs were confined to a small basement room, 20 plus dogs stacked in cages in a 10x12 windowless area. If I recall, 8 of the dogs were in such poor condition they were put down. If this had been a Backyard breeder or mill it would have made the evening news, but it was kept quiet because the breeder was well known in the breed. It was an eye opener for me because in the past I had labeled only puppy mills in this catagory. I also attended an auction to purchase as many of my breed as possible to rescue them. This is a true learning experince, one I do not care to repeat, but will to rescue my breed. In my opinion it is wise to see things first hand and not take anyones word for it when possible. Does "look before speaking" make any sense now, if not I do not see any use going on.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Poofy']
Anothe wrote

"I see no reason to debark,"

And there are those who see no reason to spay neuter too, keep their dogs contained, put them on heart worm prevention, take them to obedience...etc..etc...

What? You are merely attempting to divert the main topic. Not spaying/neutering, using parasite prevention is an entirely different topic.


"move,"


Oh goody, you plan on buying her a new house. I am sure she will gladly move to a nice 100 acre secluded area, if your buying. GET REAL Some people actually DO MOVE when they decide that they want more than one dog....so maybe it's YOU that should GET REAL.

"keep fewer dogs,"


You cannot have a decent breeding program if you don't have dogs. Sure you can "pretend" you are actually doing something...but most breeding programs require 2-3 litters a year to actually GET any where, that is if you actually have goals.

Goals? And what goals would that be? NOW, it ALL comes down to money. This entire "debarking" topic comes down to multiple dogs, kept quiet, so the owner can MAKE MONEY. Because, if the neighbors complain, then the dogs must go.....and there goes the money. Thank you for finally admitting that.

"teach them not to bark,"

HAHAHAHAHAAH you are sooooo funny. NOT all dogs can be taught not to bark. Dogs are not stupid.

"lots of ways to correct the problem."

Sure...and one way is DEBARKING the dog. Yep, it's the EASY way out.




Another wrote

"I DO have guardian dogs. I have guardian dogs because of what they were bred to do.....guard, as in livestock. The do not bark non-stop, only when they preceive something is a threat. "

Your right...they usually only bark when they percive a threat. Guardian dogs are not (usually) recreational barkers....but they bark at predators (or what they percieve as a threat), the mail man, the birds in the sky, the trash bag blowing in the wind....Butterfly farts.
It would be nice if people would research LGD's before they buy them (and other breeds). But sadly most don't. I would rather see these dogs debarked, then subjected to shock collars or being hit or locked up...or worse...loose their homes and wind up on death row.
Also...your dogs probably don't bark that much to YOU...but your neighbors (if you have any) may feel differently. I only have one pyr at home now, he is old and crippled. When I run them with livestock for training, or had them to guard what I had, I would listen to them all night long, barking as they patrolled. I liked the sound...my neighbors, who were acres away, did not.

WE DO NOT HAVE NEIGHBORS, and if we did --- our dogs are taught not to bark non-stop and they are ALL free thinkers. It's the people that run out and buy their "ranch" that is 5 acres that aggravate me. Then they bitch when the person next to them has a dog that barks, or sheep, or pigs, or any kind of livestock.




" don't understand what you mean by a dog that won't accept human control. Any dog can learn."

LGDs are bred to be self thinkers. They are bred to be taken out into a pasture and release with the livestock, to remain out there and make descisions about what has to be done. LGDs do not make good obedience dogs for this reason. Teaching them to heal (HEEL), when they feel they need to walk out front of behind. Most can NEVER be trusted off leash, because they will not come when called. There are those who do obedience and have been successful with it, achieving titles, but most NEVER get any where because these dogs are hard wired to be independant self thinkers...its about like trying to train a cat. Other dogs can just be plain stubborn...it just doesn't CLICK in their heads as to WHY you are correcting them.

Every dog that we have are free thinkers (you are right, they do not make good obedience dogs).....and can be managed to do anything. Maybe we just spend more time with them, than other people.

[Guest Anonymous]

neutering and spaying to prevent unwanted behaviors that come NATURAL to a dog, such as roaming, leg lifting, humping, dominance behaviors...etc

Okay I am for spaying and neutering (amen!) but majority of the *clipped* males I have been around still like to mount and hump! :lol:
Yes it tends to clear up the roaming and dominance but ...

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='gigishiba']The only de-barking I have ever heard of is done at puppy mills. :(

BAD stuff.

OK, I've been holding back other than my original post, which was the first reply to the orignal poster's question.

I don't care what anyone says. I would never debark my dogs.

I would do everything in my power to train the dog. If he/she barks when I'm not home, I would find a way to sound proof a room in the house and he/she would be in their crate, in the room, when I was gone. I don't care how much money it costs. I'm not rich, not even CLOSE (we struggle at times), but my dogs mean more to me than that. I would find a way to make it work. Second job to pay for doggy daycare? Maybe just a paper route in the morning would be enough to cover that cost. I don't know....but they would never be debarked.

NEVER EVER would I do that.

I don't care how much justifications people can post.

Mine are spayed and neutered, get heartworm pills, regular vet check ups, healthy food and PLENTY of love.

Nope. Not gonna touch my dogs to debark them. :x

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='sashagirl'][quote name='Jacsmom']

neutering and spaying to prevent unwanted behaviors that come NATURAL to a dog, such as roaming, leg lifting, humping, dominance behaviors...etc

Okay I am for spaying and neutering (amen!) but majority of the *clipped* males I have been around still like to mount and hump! :lol:
Yes it tends to clear up the roaming and dominance but ...

Hmmm, my FEMALE humps and lifts her leg up...

Kika lifted her leg a few times on our walk the other day. :roll:

[Carolk9s]

Jesse BSD was neutered right at 6 months. At that time, he was still stretching his body to pee, not lifting his leg. Right about 12 months old, he started lifting his leg to pee. He will flirt VERY HARD with the bitches and drool if one is in season and try to mount her. He will also mount bitches NOT in season, he cozied up to a GSD at an agility trial, she told him to leave her alone, he chose not to heed her warning, tried to mount her and she flattened him. Lightening fast he was on his back and screaming. (Some belgians like to scream bloody murder) He was ok but steered clear of her for the rest of the day!
Thought I'd better add, I was not simply 'allowing' him to annoy her, I foolishly agreed to hold the GSD's leash while her owner ran back to her car. Jesse decided to exploit this chance and got his feelings hurt for his efforts.
He was monorchid so his neuter INCLUDED the vet going into his abdomen to remove the retained testicle.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='gigishiba']
I would do everything in my power to train the dog. If he/she barks when I'm not home, I would find a way to sound proof a room in the house and he/she would be in their crate, in the room, when I was gone. I don't care how much money it costs. I'm not rich, not even CLOSE (we struggle at times), but my dogs mean more to me than that. I would find a way to make it work. Second job to pay for doggy daycare? Maybe just a paper route in the morning would be enough to cover that cost. I don't know....but they would never be debarked.

NEVER EVER would I do that.

I don't care how much justifications people can post.

Mine are spayed and neutered, get heartworm pills, regular vet check ups, healthy food and PLENTY of love.

Nope. Not gonna touch my dogs to debark them. :x


Exactly! Everyone of our dogs are on heartworm preventative, up to date on vaccinations, healthy, good food, loved, played with, spoken to, taken swimming, in the house, on the butt-ugly couch (that's abuse, I know), with us the entire day.

Any breed of dog can learn, it's their nature to please and be a part of the pack, even the "free thinkers".

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree Hobbit. They do want to please and should follow alpha's rules. Now, I know they don't all follow the rules (Ahem...mine :roll: ) but at least they TRY!

[Kiger]

[quote name='gigishiba']
I don't care what anyone says. I would never debark my dogs.


That's easy to say. Shibas aren't barkers, and anyway you'd be depriving yourself of that lovely scream. :lol:
You might think twice if you had to spend the day with my mini schnauzer - 13 and deaf as a post. And I thought she was loud when she was younger... :lol: :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Kiger'][quote name='gigishiba']
I don't care what anyone says. I would never debark my dogs.


That's easy to say. Shibas aren't barkers, and anyway you'd be depriving yourself of that lovely scream. :lol:
You might think twice if you had to spend the day with my mini schnauzer - 13 and deaf as a post. And I thought she was loud when she was younger... :lol: :wink:

Very true, I am quite spoiled. They DO bark, but not much, and only for a reason (a squirell, a person, etc).... :roll:

[Kiger]

Kato was barking at his reflection last night. All I could think of was how wimpy it sounded. I guess it's a good thing they don't open their mouths much. :D

[Guest Anonymous]

:lol:

Kenzo has a manly bark, but he's a huge boy. Kika's bark is a girly bark. Imagine her barking and trying to attack a 130 pound Rottie. His one bark could blow her away!

[Poofy]

When I stated the neutering thing...I should have clarified the first time (I did in later posts) that I was reffering to pre-pubescent spay/neuteres. 6 months is NOT a pre-pubescent spay neuter... a 7 week old to 16 week old puppy, being neutered, is a pre-pubescent spay neuter.

And leg lifting...leg lifting is a learned behavior like dominance humping. You won't stop the learned leg lifting and the dominace humping...you will prevent (99% of the time) the behavior of leg lifting for s*xual competition (which usually means peeing on everything in your house) and you will also prevent humping from s*xual frustration.

And to the person who said, they would NEVER debark their dog for any reason... Never say never.

You mean to tell me, if it came down to loosing your dog, or loosing the bark...you would get rid of the dog? Do you REALLY mean that?
For some people it HAS come to that.

Example: 25 years ago the town near me had no noise ordnances. Recently ordnances were past and a keesh hound breeder found herself in court facing thousands of dollars in fines. She was there first, the neighbors that moved in ACROSS THE LAKE, were there second. But they could hear her dogs bark...and they barked for more then a 5 minute strech at a time (wether they were quite for hours didn't matter).
She could A: Pay the $500 fine for each infraction
She could B: Leave her Job, her home, and try to get another home some where else and most likely have to disperse her kennel because of the realistic problem that houses cost $100,000 or more (then hope she doesn't wind up some where worse)
She could C: Get rid of all her dogs, destroy a 25 year long breeding program that she has dedicated her life too.
Or D: She could Debark the dogs, and give the neighbor nothing to complain about....and have no fear of breaking further noise ordnances.


Another scenerio:

Person buys a nice breed, such as a Lab, not usually prone to barking. Looses his job 8 years later and has to move into an apartment. The neighbors above tend to be a bit noisy and the dog, who is getting old barks back at them. He is left with the choice to get rid of the problem, or get out...and he has no place to go due to the limits in the job market.

Another scenerio:
A breed of dog, not known for barking, but for some reason has adopted the habbit and is driving the owners crazy. Correction has not worked, and has only been affective when the dog is on leash. They live with it for a few years...then a baby is born, the dog's barking wakes up the baby on a regular basis, no one is getting any sleep. A: Get rid of the Dog? Or B: Get rid of the bark?

I can go on and on and on...and sadly tooooo many times people get rid of the dog. Currently I have two dogs in rescue. One, an LGD who was very attached to her people and does not want another family. She was given up because she, barks to much. I suggested debarking...and they winced and said...oh how cruel....my reply was, what do you think will happen to her if she can't be rehomed (and I got a blank stare). Now, she will probably wind up dead, because all efforts to rehome her have failed. It amazes me how people feel that death is better then compromise.