Debarkening, why?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Poofy']When I stated the neutering thing...I should have clarified the first time (I did in later posts) that I was reffering to pre-pubescent spay/neuteres. 6 months is NOT a pre-pubescent spay neuter... a 7 week old to 16 week old puppy, being neutered, is a pre-pubescent spay neuter.

And leg lifting...leg lifting is a learned behavior like dominance humping. You won't stop the learned leg lifting and the dominace humping...you will prevent (99% of the time) the behavior of leg lifting for s*xual competition (which usually means peeing on everything in your house) and you will also prevent humping from s*xual frustration.

And to the person who said, they would NEVER debark their dog for any reason... Never say never.

Oh, that would be ME. I will say NEVER in this instance and will ALWAYS fall by it.

You mean to tell me, if it came down to loosing your dog, or loosing the bark...you would get rid of the dog? Do you REALLY mean that?
For some people it HAS come to that.

Example: 25 years ago the town near me had no noise ordnances. Recently ordnances were past and a keesh hound breeder found herself in court facing thousands of dollars in fines. She was there first, the neighbors that moved in ACROSS THE LAKE, were there second. But they could hear her dogs bark...and they barked for more then a 5 minute strech at a time (wether they were quite for hours didn't matter).
She could A: Pay the $500 fine for each infraction
She could B: Leave her Job, her home, and try to get another home some where else and most likely have to disperse her kennel because of the realistic problem that houses cost $100,000 or more (then hope she doesn't wind up some where worse) Normal prices for homes around here....She could C: Get rid of all her dogs, destroy a 25 year long breeding program that she has dedicated her life too.
Or D: She could Debark the dogs, and give the neighbor nothing to complain about....and have no fear of breaking further noise ordnances.

I'd move. Find a new home somewhere else.

Another scenerio:

Person buys a nice breed, such as a Lab, not usually prone to barking. Looses his job 8 years later and has to move into an apartment. The neighbors above tend to be a bit noisy and the dog, who is getting old barks back at them. He is left with the choice to get rid of the problem, or get out...and he has no place to go due to the limits in the job market.

Training. Talk to the neighbors. Who says they wont help and try to be more quiet?????


Another scenerio:
A breed of dog, not known for barking, but for some reason has adopted the habbit and is driving the owners crazy. Correction has not worked, and has only been affective when the dog is on leash. They live with it for a few years...then a baby is born, the dog's barking wakes up the baby on a regular basis, no one is getting any sleep. A: Get rid of the Dog? Or B: Get rid of the bark?

TRAINING. NEED I SAY THIS AGAIN???? TRAINING.

I can go on and on and on...and sadly tooooo many times people get rid of the dog. Currently I have two dogs in rescue. One, an LGD who was very attached to her people and does not want another family. She was given up because she, barks to much. I suggested debarking...and they winced and said...oh how cruel....my reply was, what do you think will happen to her if she can't be rehomed (and I got a blank stare). Now, she will probably wind up dead, because all efforts to rehome her have failed. It amazes me how people feel that death is better then compromise.

I never ONCE said death was better, did I? AND, can you name ONE PERSON ON THIS BOARD WHO DID????? HELL, I'LL GIVE MY DOGS PEANUT BUTTER ALL DAY IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKE TO KEEP THEM QUITE. You know how it sticks to the roof of your mouth? That'll keep 'em quiet.

Like I said before, I can not ever ever ever go with your justifications. There is always a better solution. And I DON'T mean rehoming, taking to a shelter, or killing.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yall are too excited around here.... Mellow, we are all friends having a discussion, there is no need for yelling and fighting, you CANNOT persuade a person into your way of thinking if they are on the deffensive, you have to talk to them calmy and cooly and then when they are actively listening you can show them pros and cons and make a legitimate argument for your views. Not by going on the offensive and getting everyone all riled up.

have a drink, breath and relax... :drinking:

:black:

[Guest Anonymous]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Yall are too excited around here.... Mellow, we are all friends having a discussion, there is no need for yelling and fighting, you CANNOT persuade a person into your way of thinking if they are on the deffensive, you have to talk to them calmy and cooly and then when they are actively listening you can show them pros and cons and make a legitimate argument for your views. Not by going on the offensive and getting everyone all riled up.

have a drink, breath and relax... :drinking:

:black:

OK, OK...I'll take a Xanax and relax.....

I just had to get my point across.

[wildbunch]

Poofy has your shelter ever considered starting a no bark training program. If your shelter has such a problem with it then help the owners find a resolution.
Spay/Neuter at 7 to 16 weeks! Now I can honestly say I WOULD NEVER do this. The dog doesn't have a chance to develop mentally or physically. I am a firm believer in the 5-6 month timeline.

And to the person who said, they would NEVER debark their dog for any reason... Never say never.

Um I'm with Gigi here, I will NEVER debark a dog I own. We put our dogs first, if they are unhappy or a neighbor is unhappy we will move. Simple as that. As I said before, we strive to live in doggy neighborhoods (EVERY) neighbor has a dog. Dog parties, group dog walks. It's great fun. We don't care about how far we have to drive to work, if there is a nice, safe place for us to walk our dogs and they have room to play then we are happy. They currently have a one acre completely fenced back yard and BLM right next door where we can run them off leash.
A dog that is cooped up all day is going to be very unhappy, lonely and IS going to bark. Figure out why the dog is barking before you try to resolve a problem.
I am going to stick by my comment. Dogs are smarter than people think, any dog can be trained to not bark.
Please anyone reading this do your research. If you have a dog that barks alot hire a trainer or speak to a trainer to discuss the problem. Hey you can even just call up your vet for some ideas. Got to the library and check out some books (FREE) on behaviour problems and how to solve them. If you have internet access (which you do if you're reading this) just do a search on "problem barking" you'll come up with stuff to keep you busy for quite a long time.
DO NOT debark your dog because of the convienience. This must be a last chance kind of procedure. I would much prefer to listen to a dog bark then that shriek they can emit after the debarking procedure.

One more thing: About the people turning over the LGD. I also have worked in shelters and have seen what people mark. Have you ever sat down with these people and actually tried to get the truth from them. Most people will not admit that they just don't like the dog, or it's too big (people don't like to look stupid) so they lie. I would say that out of 100 people who turn their dogs over because of barking, 80 of those dogs are just not fitting in or got to big after puppy stages. The ego plays a big thing here and most people aren't going to admit they made a mistake and the dog got bigger than they thought. Barking is a great excuse and you don't look like the bad guy.

Be sensible do your homework before resorting to a surgical procedure to be the cure all.

A breed of dog, not known for barking, but for some reason has adopted the habbit and is driving the owners crazy. Correction has not worked, and has only been affective when the dog is on leash. They live with it for a few years...then a baby is born, the dog's barking wakes up the baby on a regular basis, no one is getting any sleep. A: Get rid of the Dog? Or B: Get rid of the bark?

Before baby this dog is frustrated about something hum what could it be? Watch the dog, what makes it happy, when does it bark the most, when does it not bark.
After baby this dog needs attention. He is lonely, bored and feeling left out. Often after the new baby arrives the dog gets put on the back burner. I certainly don't blame him for acting out. He needs a PROFESSIONAL trainer. Someone who can explain to the humans why he is the way he is. (Gigi love the peanut butter idea, yummy and keeps them quiet.) Peanut butter in a kong is a good boredom reliever and hey they can't bark. You can also use yogurt. Just poor it into the kong and freeze it. I don't know of any dog that will turn these down.
If my dogs are barking (and I have a hound who is prone to barking and baying) all I have to do is walk outside say "hush" and walla, yeah no more barking. I would say this probably took me a week to accomplish.

I don't want to fight but I don't want users who are looking for advice to look at this post and think it is the cure for barking. First time dog owners are on here for research and they want to be better parents. Let's give them the right advice, please do your research read about the barking behaviour and try to figure out why your dog is barking.
If you are here considering a breed to buy, go to breeders, owners, shows and learn, learn, learn about the breed. The shelters are over populated have you thought of rescuing a dog in need. Be realistic large puppies do get big and some breeds like to bark more than others.
Enough said. :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

I will have to admit that it does seem to be a cop-out, stealing your dogs voice because you cant or wont take tie to work with your animal. It is not as difficult as it sounds if you don have time to train you shouldnt own get a fish they NEVER SAY NUTHIN and you dont have to slice thier throats open fo no good reason either. I can understand both sides and It really isnt neccesary in the most extraordinary of circumstances the optoin to train is still available and should be used. Now I do not condone anti-bark collars because they hurt the dog , or they use the citronella(spelling?) and either way they are negative inforcement. If at all possible i am for positive training. However in extreme cases they are actually not bad training tools, that is for the truely incorigable barkers though, not for the lazy owner who wants a quick fix.

:black:

[Guest Anonymous]

GREAT POST WILD!

[Horsefeathers!]

I can still see the passion in this subject and I know this is the unpopular view, but I can't honestly say "never" unless I say I've NEVER been in a position to consider it yet. I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I can think of several situations where there may not be time to train away barking behavior. Not as in, "I'm too busy; I don't have time." More like someone having to either get rid of the dog or fix the situation NOW.

I guess maybe I can see the other side a little more clearly because I've kinda sorta been there. When I was (way way) younger, I was kicked out of my house and, long story short, ended up homeless for quite a while. Very young, no car, no job and one little mutt of a dog that stayed by my side the whole time. I had no idea as a teen that I would eventually end up homeless, but I did do what I could to keep my dog. I ended up slumming here and there, always keeping my dog. Granted, I probably shouldn't have had a dog at that time, but there she was. There were a couple of places I lived that absolutely did not allow dogs, so I had to be sneaky. Fortunately, my little dog wasn't a barker, but I have to honestly say that had she been, I may have considered it. There would have been no time to work on training that behavior away. One single bark and we would have been busted. That's what I mean when I say I would do it if it meant not losing my dog.

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying that, whether it makes me unpopular or not, I can honestly see both points of view here. While I still think that training and responsible ownership are essential, to me there will always be exceptions to every rule. I just can't say "always" and "never." Every time I've ever done it, I end up put in just the position I'm trying to avoid. I guess that makes me paranoid, but it's worked so far.

Again, I really would hate to see debarking become as accepted as declawing cats. I think in the general sense it IS a cop out. However, I try to consider the exceptions. The fact is that many people DO get put into positions beyond their control. As far as the breeder thing, that's the first I've heard of that and don't know enough about it to form an opinion one way or the other. I'm just referring to abrupt changes in lifestyles necessitating sometimes drastic measures.

Sorry :(

[Guest Anonymous]

HF I understand your point.. The other time I see is if you have an older person that is living in a place that has a dog. They have been together forever and seperating them will cause more stress to both than good. You try everything and it doesn't work. I have had this debate here. It should not be a fad thing, it should not be a breed thing. It should be something done on a has to be done basis. When all else fails or there is nothing left but. People would think more.

[Hobbit]

Wild, I do agree that some people use the excuse of "he barks too much" to justify them taking the dog to the shelter.

Hum...not too long ago there was a women on here that used the exact same excuse to get rid of her dog ---- "dog barked too much". The real reason, if the truth was told, was that they got another dog and she just didn't want the "old" dog anymore.

Good point HF and Jacsmom. It should be done as the last, very, very last resort. Personally, I think that it's done mostly for convenience.

[Poofy]

As for Death over debarking...I never accused any one HERE of making that choice...I accuse the morons that turn in their dogs, for this unwanted behavior.
And once again, for training...training does not always work.




You said
"Poofy has your shelter ever considered starting a no bark training program. If your shelter has such a problem with it then help the owners find a resolution.
Spay/Neuter at 7 to 16 weeks! Now I can honestly say I WOULD NEVER do this. The dog doesn't have a chance to develop mentally or physically. I am a firm believer in the 5-6 month timeline. "


One problem, our town does not have a shelter, there is not a shelter within 35 miles of my little town. The shelters that are around are so over taxed with other finacial problems...its scarey. The nearest qualified dog training facility is 1.5 hours south of me.



"We put our dogs first, if they are unhappy or a neighbor is unhappy we will move. Simple as that."

It must be nice, to be that finacially well off, that you can just go buy a house on a whim whenever you like. Not everyone can do that.
I personally do not WANT to ever debark my dogs, and I have chosen to live in places where I am less likely to ever be faced with that. Currently I live down the road from a chicken farm, population 1 million plus....I don't complain about the sound of a million hungry chickens at 4 am in the morning...and they don't complain about my dogs...or the rescues (which do bark a lot).
But not everyone has the luxuary of living in an agricultural community, or being able to move when they want... and then, life changes happen and they are faced with that delimma.


" Dogs are smarter than people think, any dog can be trained to not bark."


Its not a matter of a lack of intelligence...sometime, especially in LGDs it a matter of TOO MUCH intelligence. They think they know when-how-and why and are smarter then you. ;)


"DO NOT debark your dog because of the convienience. This must be a last chance kind of procedure. I would much prefer to listen to a dog bark then that shriek they can emit after the debarking procedure."


I agree here. Don't do it out of convienance...but don't be afraid to do it if it is the only solution other then getting rid of the dogs. Out of the 50+ debarked dogs I have known, I have never heard one shriek either. I have only heard a dog shriek when it has learned to avoid the correction of a citronella collar or a shock collar.


"Have you ever sat down with these people and actually tried to get the truth from them."

These dogs are usually, turned over to me, personally, as I do the rescue work for this breed in my area. Yes I talk to these people, they don't just fill out a sheet of paper. I have even tried walking people through, step by step, training methods, that are usually most effective. I have helped lay out, rehousing plans, where the dog's schedule would better fit their work schedule to try and control the barking as they guard the home when no one is at home. This works, some times, and many times it fails, due to pressures put on people by home-owners societies, local ordnances, dangerous neighbors, and family.


"Most people will not admit that they just don't like the dog, or it's too big "
The second biggest complaint for this breed is the hair...to much of it.. :)
And of course I discuss grooming alternatives with them as well.


"Before baby this dog is frustrated about something hum what could it be?"

Well...my reaction to people like this is, why the heck did you have the kid, you had the dog..but that is just me... ;) Frustration may not be it. It may be the squirrles outside the window, it might be what ever is on TV, it might be the cat on the fire place mantel...etc..etc...

"If you are here considering a breed to buy, go to breeders, owners, shows and learn, learn, learn about the breed."

You will also see, these same breeders at the shows, will have their own dogs debarked to cut down on neighbor confrontation.... Visit the collie and sheltie ring...some of the schnauzer breeders....they will also have opinions about debarking.

[yellowlabsrule]

An article related to barking...
THIS JUST IN: HEAVY METAL MAKES DOGS BARK
Recent studies headed by Deborah Wells of Queen's University in Belfast, Northern Ireland, have shown that dogs are more relaxed and well-behaved when listening to classical music. Although there have been studies on other species' responses to music--including one that determined that radio playing increases egg production in chickens--Wells' study of 50 dogs at the National Canine Defence League's Rehoming Centre in Worcestershire, United Kingdom, is the first of its kind. The pooches chilled out to Bach and Beethoven, resting quietly and standing up less frequently than when a Metallica album was played. The dogs barked most when listening to the heavy metal, and a pop music compilation, including tunes by Britney Spears and Bob Marley, had little effect on their behavior. Researchers say the results can be helpful to shelters and rescue groups in calming their canine charges. Guess they don't call them woofers and tweeters for nothing ...

[Guest Anonymous]

Just thinking about this....

How much does it cost to de-bark a dog?

If someone is in a financial situation where their dog barks, they can't afford good, formal training, they can't afford to move out of their home, and can't afford the de-barking surgery, then what?
Sure, maybe they shouldn't have a dog if they can't afford it but maybe they COULD afford it when they got it.

[Queen Bitch]

Hey labsrule, that just reminded me of a funny story. After school started up again in my neck of the woods, one of the weekly newspapers had a college "disoriontation" party in the park. There were several bands that played, one of them being my friends' weird heavy metal band. Another friend of mine had brought her two aussie mixes. The dog were all chill and hanging out, not a care in the world. Then the band launched into a Guns and Roses cover, the one with the harmonica. The dogs jumped up on the picnic table and proceeded to steal the show by howling for the duration of the song. There had been a spotlight on the band, that got focused in the opposite direction, on the dogs. Someone was videotaping the band, that too got focused on the dogs. Everyone was doubled over laughing hysterically. I think if Conar had been there he would have done the same thing. He's isn't most physically affectionate dog in the world ( I think it would destroy his "I'm a big stoic nothern breed not some silly lab or dalmatian" self image.) But the second he isn't the focus and ,god forbid , people are talking or interacting with each other, he'll do the pathetically adorable woo wooing. (I didn't bring him because a) he doesn't live with me (TECHNICALLY he's my dad's dog but bahhhh. and b) he isn't too fond of other dogs. He's a very alpha boy, he doesn't care if they are just trying to play, he doesn't want anything to do with it. I think that also would contradict his self image...lol. This is the same dog that if you throw a ball for him, well he will go get it, but he will walk, none of that undignified running after a silly toy stuff for him.

Also, what part of Oregon are you in? I lived in Portland for two years. My fave bar was very dog friendly. The Willamette Week did a review of the various bar with stereotypical "quotes" that could possibly be overheard. The one for "my" bar was "I think that dog just sneezed in that guys beer!"

[Horsefeathers!]

gigishiba napisał(a):

Just thinking about this....

How much does it cost to de-bark a dog?

If someone is in a financial situation where their dog barks, they can't afford good, formal training, they can't afford to move out of their home, and can't afford the de-barking surgery, then what?
Sure, maybe they shouldn't have a dog if they can't afford it but maybe they COULD afford it when they got it.

Actually, debarking is very cheap compared to the cost of buying a new house in a decent neighborhood and my thing with the training wasn't the cost of it, but rather the time it would take to do it vs. being thrown out (of, say, a homeless shelter where dogs aren't allowed... been there, done that and pulled it off) for having a dog.

Once again, I am talking critical situations here where you have to do something NOW. At that point, it really doesn't matter if that person should have ever had that dog or not. There it is.

I still don't know anything about the breeders thing. That's the first I'd heard of that.

Just a side note here... I don't know if anyone else here has ever been suddenly homeless before, but it can sure change your sense of priorities. While not a thief by nature, I was not above walking into the store and eating a Reese's cup right there. Point being sometimes ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. When you're young, homeless, look like h*ll with no shower and unable to even be able to brush your teeth regularly, jobs aren't as easy to come by as it would seem unless you're REALLY willing to lower yourself ("Hey, baby, I can help you out... just let me take a few pictures and...." been in that situation, too, and at least never sank THAT low).

Maybe it has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but sometimes I get a little defensive when people (in the general sense... not aimed at anyone here) who have never been in certain circumstances seem automatically assess blame with the victim. While I agree that many people put themselves in situations that go wrong, it's also wrong to assume that it's always their fault. If anyone EVER wants to know why I was homeless, pm me and I'll tell you and you can decide if it was my fault and if I should have had to dump my dog at the pound because *I* was irresponsible.

Sorry to so far out into left field with this, but it really does in a round about sort of way have to do with responsible pet ownership in the sense that sometimes sh*t just happens. As weird as it might sound coming from me, I try to practice tolerance. If I've never been put in someone's shoes, I try to refrain from passing judgement.

Even when the whole Ebby thing was going on and she wanted to dump her dog because she claimed he barked so much, I had the thought then that as a last ditch effort if she absolutely could NOT resolve it any other way, I would be for debarking before getting rid of the dog as a LAST DITCH effort. There are so many dogs in shelters awaiting their executions that I just think that in dire circumstances it would be the lesser of the evils. It turned out that (I believe) she just wanted to dump him because she had the newer dog, so I really didn't suggest it. That and the fact that I know where it would have led.

Sorry for the rant.

Peace.

[Poofy]

In my area to debark a dog it will cost you about thirty to fourty dollars and that included the antibiotic they put the dog on afterwards.

[Guest Anonymous]

Poofy napisał(a):

In my area to debark a dog it will cost you about thirty to fourty dollars and that included the antibiotic they put the dog on afterwards.

THAT'S IT????? LESS THAN A SPAY OR NEUTER?

[Hobbit]

Horsefeathers, I agree with you on the circumstances.

I think under those circumstances, that debarking would be justified. BUT, I don't think that's what most everyone is thinking about.

Debarking (*only*) for the convenience of the owner and not really for dire circumstances is what (I think) the majority is thinking about.

Debarking because:
---they might have to disperse some of the 30 or 100 dogs that they have for breeding.

---they may lose at a show because the dog barks in the ring.

---they just don't want to take the time to correct the problem.

---it's the easy way out.

Those type of reasons, not because (again) of dire circumstances, the very, very last resort sort of thing.

[Nancy B]

My dogs are never left unsupervised in our yard so barking will never be an issue for us but I guess I hold an unpopular view. I don't have a problem with someone debarking a chronic barker.

I attend many agility trials and almost all the Shelties there are debarked. I'm grateful their owners did that because it's annoying as heck and disturbing to my dogs to be seated near chronic barkers. (Agility venuse are usually so packed that you can't just pick up and move...folks set up the night before and by the time you know you've got a problem dog nearby, there's nowhere to move to.) A chronic barker can also be a distraction to the dogs working in the ring.

I also attend conformation shows and I've noticed that a lot of the conformation Shelties are debarked too.

Our neighborhood had a chronic barker for quite a while. The homeowners association finally, after being urged by a large number of homeowners, enforced the covenants. Barking for more than 5 minutes started with a fine and kept escalating until the homeowners were left with the choice of debarking the dog or giving it up. (Yes, they were irresponsible pigs but, that's beside the point.) The dog is a middle aged dog not a cute pup, not even a very nice dog. I don't think it would have stood much of a chance in a shelter of being adopted. I'm glad that they debarked it becasue at least it kept it's home. It may not be a great home but it's the one it's had all it's life and it is cared for....aside from the barking issue.

Debarking, as with any surgery, poses a risk to the dog. I do think that most barking problems can be resolved through better management (not leaving dog outside) and to some extent training. I also believe that there are some breeds and some individual dogs that are recreational barkers. I'd rather see those dogs debarked than lose their homes or drive an irate neighbor to harm them.

[mouseatthebusstop]

MY DOGS ARE NOT BARKERS, ONLY BARK FOR A GOOD REASON
I ONCE KEPT 5 PARAKETTS AND THEY COULD MAKE A NOISE WITH THEIR SQUARKING WORST THAN THE DOGS. I ONLY HAVE ONE LEFT NOW
I THINK IT IS WRONG TO PUT A DOG THOUGH THE DEBARKING OPERATION

[eric]

Personally, I would never debark my dogs, I love their "voice" too much. Not just the barking, but all those cute sounds and yawns they make.

We've spent alot of time with Sam and Travis (still working on Zeke) to control their barking and to minimize nuisanse barking in the house.

They are also not left outside unsupervised and are immediately brought in if they start to bark. Thankfully, none of them are naturally "barky" and will only bark if they see or hear something in the back (i.e.: a deer, or the neighbors kids making a ruckus).

However, having previously lived next to someone with two Collies who barked at EVERYTHING (clouds, sun, birds, trees, fenceposts, grass, etc) I can't say that I oppose debarking. When you are on the receiving end of nuisance barking, it becomes less clear cut.

I still think its a last resort type thing, but the unfortunate reality is that most people simply don't want to put the time in to train their dogs not to bark. I also think some dogs, for whatever reasons, are going to bark madly despite their owners' best efforts.

[corgilady]

:o I'm not really sure if I want in on this conversation, or not! I just wanted to say, as most of you know, I have a BC chronic barker. Actually I suspect he would be diagnosed as having "separation anxiety"; it seems like he only barks (outside) if I leave him out there. If I go stand with him, there is no stand-and-bark routine. However, he barks at everything, real or suspected. Sirens go by about 10 times a day and he carries on for ages after they are gone. He also is very "talky" and whines, woofs, etc. all the time. It is the way he communicates, I think. He drives me nuts. I read somewhere that TTouch is great to use around their mouths and helps with these "barky" dogs. Anyone tried it?

[Hobbit]

No, but duct tape works very well. :wink:

kidding....just kidding, calm down.....

[corgilady]

HOBBIT:

I have him all taped up, and he is still barking....tape around his muzzle, eyes, definitely will remove the whiskers when it is removed.... taped his legs and his pizzle and his tail to the back while I was at it...

what have I done wrong, that he is still barking??????????????? :angel:

[Hobbit]

......um, use baler wire to hole down the tape and his mouth shut.


Better use a disclaimer for that one......just kidding.....do not do this. There, hope we're covered.

[eric]

Corgilady,

Have you tried one of those feedback collars? I personally don't like the electric shock ones, but they have the ones that spray them in the face. It might work.