Debarkening, why?

[Guest Anonymous]

Lately I've heard that a phenomena called debarkening isn't all uncommon in the states, aspecially for colliebreeds.

Why debark your dog? Is it really etically defendable?

If the reason is that you don't whant your dog to disturb the neighbours while you're away, there's better methods to applay. (spelling?) To train the dog how tho act alone eg, if if that doesn't work, well, then the dog is not cut out for the lifestyle its living. (Either owner should cange habits or dog rehomed)

Does anyone here know exactly how this procidure is executed?
And Why?

[Guest Anonymous]

The only de-barking I have ever heard of is done at puppy mills. :(

BAD stuff.

[Carolk9s]

Well, in my experience collies can bark all danged day at nothing at all, same goes for shelties.
HOWEVER, I personally feel debarking a dog is for the most part a senseless operation. While it does, if done properly, greatly reduce the loudness of the barking, many dogs will continue to 'ack ack ack', a rather nasty sound that still grates on ones nerves. Of course the people on the next street won't here it anymore.
I agree that training the dog is the better option, of course some will go to anti bark collars that may either give the dog a little shock or perhaps a spritz of an annoying scent when they bark.
Years and years ago my aunt had a sheltie of her debarked. Once he was healed, and it didnt take long, he resumed his nonstop vocalizations, just the volume was reduced, not the frequency.
I had a sheltie, she would sit in the middle of the back yard and bark at every passing leaf but I never considered having her debarked, just told her to shut up and brought her inside.

[Guest Anonymous]

"Pitbulls" have also be debarked for the purpose of drug houses it keeps the dogs quiet and during a bust or a raid the dealers would turn the dogs loose on the agents tpo give them time to get away. Training is the best option however it is difficult to train a behavior that doesnt appear when you are there to correct it, so the collor is an excellent tool, although its the vibration that makes them go off and i have seen dogs get shocked just for whining and jumping in thier kennels when thier owners get home. So it can make a dog totally mute almost not knowing when its okay to bark.

[yellowlabsrule]

I know of a person who debarked their dog and now it goes YIP YIP YIP! Really high pitched! :-?

[behle]

Debarking is a cruel practice. Under no circumstances would I put a dog through the procedure to rob them of their voice. Lots of folks like to say their dogs are just like their children, but don't seem to make decisions concerning them as if they were. Would any parent do this procedure on one of their noisy children? I think not.

I agree training is the best solution! Better yet, as I have read on this board under other topics, owners should research the breeds IN ADVANCE of acquiring a new companion so see which are most likely to vocalize to an excess. In this case, "an ounce of prevention is more than worth a pound of cure"!

[Kiger]

I wish my dog would bark more. He only barks at my in-laws evil cat. I swear someone could break into my house and he would just stand there with his silly Shiba grin. "Oh you're taking the TV...PET ME!" "Nice computer...PET ME!" "Here's my toy. PLAY WITH ME!"
He doesn't seem particulary loyal either so he probably wouldn't care if they took him too. :roll:
Oh yeah, and debarked dogs still bark, it's just that they sound like they are hacking up a lung.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote="ROTT'N'PIT"]Training is the best option however it is difficult to train a behavior that doesnt appear when you are there to correct it,quote]

Ofcause the lonlinesstraining takes a long time and a lot of patience, and maybee some small gate to use indoors, but when it is done you will have a dog that does not only stay quiet, but that also is calm and comfartable while your away. (and does't wreck the house). I must say that I think the "lemoncollar" is the last way.

[Guest Anonymous]

Debarking is not cruel, Debarking is NOT only done by puppy mills, Debarking is NOT only done by drug users/dealer to their pit bulls.

Barking in dogs is the end result of the guarding/alert behavior that many breeds, especially herding and guardian breeds ( toy breeds also do this).

Dogs do not care if they can bark. They do not care how loud their bark is (as that is why deaf dogs bark). Debarking is often done by ***Contentious*** people who do not want their dogs to disturb the neighbors. Behavior modification, for SOME BREEDS, is IMPOSSIBLE. Yes, in some cases, where barking is due to boredom or to get attention, behavior modification can work...but when it is a genetic trait, in the dog, to act in that way, it is actually CRUEL to try and correct the dog.
In these cases, the dog does not understand, that he is being corrected for the bark, rather he thinks he is getting corrected for the "behavior" (be it guarding, herding, playing) associated with the bark. I have seen way too many ruined dogs, where people tried to "train" them not to bark. I have seen way to many dogs, LOOSE their homes and wind up euthenized because of the ignorance associated with debarking. In a perfect world, you would not get a breed prone to barking, if you lived close to neighbors...but many times you move, people move in, development occurs (or the dog you get decides he is a recreational barker)...and suddenly you are not alone. These dogs are much happier debarked, and able to run and "bark" their heads off doing what they were bred and are genetically predispositioned to do, rather then have to sit quietly under the stress of not being able to "dance" the "dance" in fear of correction or displeasure.

Collie breeders debark their dogs, because many, many (way to many) collies are recreational barkers....they will walk around happy as a clam bouncing and "guarding" alerting the world NON STOP FOR HOURS ON END. They bark when something moves, they bark when they move, many bark in anticipation of something moving.... These breeders have to live with these dogs...they have to live with their neighbors as well...and it is the kindest thing to human and dog to do. I have known many, many, many debarked dogs of various breeds...none of them were "less" of a dog... Debarking is no more cruel then neutering and spaying to prevent unwanted behaviors that come NATURAL to a dog, such as roaming, leg lifting, humping, dominance behaviors...etc.
And like neutering and spaying, it cuts down on unwanted dogs in the shelters.

[DogPaddle]

A word of caution on those electric collars. A neighbour had one for her jack russel, she also had one of those extendable leashes. She was out chatting with the neighbours with the dog on its leash and with its bark collar on (I don't know why you'd use a bark collar if you were there to correct yourself but maybe its some consistancy issue I'm unaware of) Anyway the dog was rushing about and got the leash wedged under a stationary cars tire, it was wedged very close to the collar and when the dog went to move away from the car (it was moving quickly, jack russels always seem to be moving quickly) it jerked on the leash, this caused it to yelp, this caused an electric shock, the panicked pup now tried to jerk away from what it perceived as a nasty attacker - the big black tire and the leash, it couldn't get away, jerked on the leash and yelped and was shocked and yelped and there was a nasty circle of yelping panic and pain. The owner tried to free the leash but the pup had it wedged pretty good, tried to take off the collor but the pup was naturally squirming and freaking out, in the end the quickest method was to cut it off but there were still red raw spots where the pup and been shocked and it had already lost control of its bowels.

[behle]

Got home and read the board; wanted to reply to the statement that there is no difference between debarking and spaying or neutering dogs. since they both prevent unwanted behaviors. Every dog I have had has not been spayed or neutered to prevent behaviors, but instead to prevent an increase in the canine overpopulation problem in this country. As a regular dog owner (not a breeder, etc.) my perspective may be different from others. :o

In addition, how does anyone really know whether or not the debarked dogs care whether they can bark? After all, amputees still "feel" their missing limb. My husband and I had a lengthy conversation about this on the way home from work today! :roll:

[mcobbin]

ok...i promised myself i wouldn't get into another one of these debates for a while...i'm sure most of you can guess how i stand on this. i just have two words for mei mei who said :

Knowing that a Collie is a recreational barker wouldn't it be wiser to GET ANOTHER BREED OF DOG rather than de-barking it?

THANK YOU!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm against Debarking... although I don't have to complain, I was lucky (in this way... not with her aggression mind you :-? ) but Hazel only barks when she's acting aggressivly, or someone comes to the door... other then that, I can't even get her to bark on command!!
However, we did once-upon-a-time have a chihuahua who barked at EVERYTHING, leaves, snow, rain, cats, cars, dogs, people you name it!
Although we would have never concidered debarking her. It was INCREDIBLY annoying (if you've ever heard a little chihuahua bark, you know what I mean!) but we'd tell her to be quiet, or remove her from the situation she was barking at.
Around here we don't have to worry about the neighbors, since we all live so far apart... but in smaller neighborhoods... I would say the collars that have that smell come off when they bark would work best...
If you have your dog at home alone, I think that should be the only time you put these collars on, however, I do understand that when you get home (like someone on here said I think? having troubling finding who now) that they will dance around and make noises. I LOVE it when Hazel does this when I get home, she will even make little yipping noises. So with that I'm a little stumped... can't really say what I think of when considering that now.
Training would be the best solution (sp?) I agree... but it is also hard to correct something when your not home.
I read somewhere... a LONG time ago about someone who set up a system in his kennels, when the dogs barked and jumped at the gates, a bucket of water would fall on them (not the bucket it's self of course)... but then would the dog just learn to STAND and bark?

[Carolk9s]

Mei-Mei napisał(a):

Knowing that a Collie is a recreational barker wouldn't it be wiser to GET ANOTHER BREED OF DOG rather than de-barking it? :o

Yes indeedy it would be quite wise! Now how many people, especially first time dog owners rely on WISDOM? Unfortunately, not very many! I want a Lassie dog! I wanna I wanna! Then they discover that their dog aint a danged thing like Lassie on tv, do they think the dog brushed itself? Haha! When I was 14 and my aunt gave me Dawna, I had NO idea the danged dog would bark at the clouds passing over! My aunt raised and showed shelties, SHE failed to mention that little tidbit. I still catch Jesse sometimes standing down back just barking, it seems at nothing. Would never have my dogs debarked though.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am anti puppy mills, but they take alot of crap on this board. I know just as many show breeders who debark. For some reason when you have 30 dogs in a townshouse or 15 in a small apt. your thinking is off. Debarking makes perfect sense to you.
Puppy mills are usually a distant from close neighbors, they do not care if the dogs bark. They rarely live in the same area (house) with the dogs.
It is wise to look before you speak.

[mcobbin]

my sentiments exactly mei-mei....that makes as much sense as the poll from "the guy who lives next.."

[mcobbin]

again...i'm leaving this one alone and just saying EXACTLY!!

[Guest Anonymous]

My neighbors had their small dog (im not sure what it is :) ) debarked because of constant threats from their neighbors (not us). It now makes this horrible choking sound when it tries to bark and is coughing constantly. I think its cruel. :( :cry:

[DogPaddle]

Hmmm if people are debarking dogs because they annoy their neighbours maybe I can devoice AND destupid my neighbours teenaged kids who are always shouting and partying.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Poofy2']Debarking is not cruel, Debarking is NOT only done by puppy mills, Debarking is NOT only done by drug users/dealer to their pit bulls.

Barking in dogs is the end result of the guarding/alert behavior that many breeds, especially herding and guardian breeds ( toy breeds also do this).

Dogs do not care if they can bark. Please tell me how YOU know this?

They do not care how loud their bark is (as that is why deaf dogs bark). Deaf dogs can not hear, therefore; they bark loudly. Dogs can be taught to bark softly, at least mine can and have. I've heard dogs bark softly and very loudly, depending on what they are barking at, the level of their stress, or competition.

Debarking is often done by ***Contentious*** people who do not want their dogs to disturb the neighbors. Maybe, but it's done because they do not want to take the time to teach the dog not to bark loudly.

Behavior modification, for SOME BREEDS, is IMPOSSIBLE. Yes, in some cases, where barking is due to boredom or to get attention, behavior modification can work...but when it is a genetic trait, in the dog, to act in that way, it is actually CRUEL to try and correct the dog. WHAT? So a genetic trait to bite is cruel to try and correct because the dog doesn't understand? It's the same thing. There are various things that a person can do to get the dog not to bark.

In these cases, the dog does not understand, that he is being corrected for the bark, rather he thinks he is getting corrected for the "behavior" (be it guarding, herding, playing) associated with the bark. That is the shortcoming of the handler. If done correctly. There are ways to correct a bark without harm to the dog (mentally). Teach the dog to bark on command, then be silent. Teach him to bark softly --- it can be done with patience.

I have seen way too many ruined dogs, where people tried to "train" them not to bark. I have seen way to many dogs, LOOSE their homes and wind up euthenized because of the ignorance associated with debarking. In a perfect world, you would not get a breed prone to barking, if you lived close to neighbors...but many times you move, people move in, development occurs (or the dog you get decides he is a recreational barker)...and suddenly you are not alone. These dogs are much happier debarked, and able to run and "bark" their heads off doing what they were bred and are genetically predispositioned to do, rather then have to sit quietly under the stress of not being able to "dance" the "dance" in fear of correction or displeasure. Even being debarked, MANY still make some sort of noise. NOISE is NOISE to many neighbors, regardless of the level of pitch or decimal.

Collie breeders debark their dogs, because many, many (way to many) collies are recreational barkers....they will walk around happy as a clam bouncing and "guarding" alerting the world NON STOP FOR HOURS ON END. They bark when something moves, they bark when they move, many bark in anticipation of something moving.... These breeders have to live with these dogs...they have to live with their neighbors as well...and it is the kindest thing to human and dog to do. I have known many, many, many debarked dogs of various breeds...none of them were "less" of a dog... Debarking is no more cruel then neutering and spaying to prevent unwanted behaviors that come NATURAL to a dog, such as roaming, leg lifting, humping, dominance behaviors...etc. Neutering and spaying does NOT stop all these behaviors. It only stops reproduction. Many neutered dogs still mark, still roam, still hump, still display dominance behavior. Many females are still just as dominant as before.

And like neutering and spaying, it cuts down on unwanted dogs in the shelters. That is debatable. MANY dogs still end up at the shelter for lots of other reasons....many times it's the owners inability to manage or handle the dog.

[wildbunch]

I do not agree with debarking a dog. Dogs bark because of emotion, expression and communication. We may not understand it, but they are always telling us or other dogs what is going on.
Come on people, research your breeds. Also moving is not an excuse.
Before you move into a new home check out your neighborhood. Are there other happy, healthy dogs around? If so chances are some barking won't be annoying. Keep your dog inside at night so it won't bark all night. Work with your dog, teach your dog the "no bark" signal. It's just repitition. If my dog isn't paying attention to me I give a loud whoop and clap my hands really loud. It startles them enough them they lose concentration on what they were barking at. We have to stop making decisions based on our lives becoming easier. Just because you won't spend 20 minutes a day working with your dog and actually looking into what makes him/her bark doesn't mean your dog's life should be put at stake under the knife. Try a water pistol!
Please do as the other members have suggested, research the breed you're interested in. Find a breeder, go to a show, find someone who has that breed and spend some time with them. Most good people will be honest about the breeds faults. If you can't find anyone, find a breed specific forum and ask them.
I probably should have kept my mouth shut on this topic but I feel strongly about this.
I personally love to hear a dog sing (howl) and to deprive them of this is just cruel. It's an expression and one of the most beautiful in the world.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Butterfly']I am anti puppy mills, but they take alot of crap on this board. So, you are saying the "crap" should not be dealt to the puppy mills? Sure sounds like it. You think we should cut them some slack? Think NOT!

I know just as many show breeders who debark. For some reason when you have 30 dogs in a townshouse or 15 in a small apt. your thinking is off. Debarking makes perfect sense to you. Yep, if the barking of 30 or 15 dogs is bothering someone, then MAYBE they shouldn't be living with 30 or 15 dogs in a small area! It is really hard to show all those dogs at the same time. So, please do not even try to say they are ALL being shown!

Puppy mills are usually a distant from close neighbors, they do not care if the dogs bark. They rarely live in the same area (house) with the dogs.
It is wise to look before you speak.

[Poofy]

Yes, you would think, some one who cannot tollerate barking, would not get a collie...but if you re-read my post again...as I said...people can have situation changes that put them in a position where it is either, end the nusance barking or get rid of the dog. I am sorry..if you get rid of your dog because you "can't stand to debark it" because it is "cruel" then you deserve to be taken out back and shot. You are worse then any puppy mill person ever thought of being. It is far more difficult and unkind for a dog to be torn out of the only home it has known, taken away from its pack, the people it loves, and left in a strange new world. I bet if the dog COULD make a descision...he would choose not to bark any more.

Shock Collars" HAHAHAHAHA Talk about CRUEL AND MEAN! Good grief! When you are dealing with a breed of dog BRED to bark...shock collars do NOTHING. They do NOT understand why they are recieving the correction. I have seen dogs, who have burned holes, so deep in their neck, that they actually damaged their trachea.

Also...debarking does not have to *remove* the bark totally. Most have it so that it "turns down" the volume. The dog can still alert you, without alerting the entire neiborhood.

If you could not control the volume in which you spoke...and screamed all the time...would you rather have someone adjust that volume? or squirt you with a water gun, spray citrinella (and remember a dog's olfactoy is a thousand times stonger then a humans) ZAP you with an E-collar, smack you with a news paper, jerk you with a choke chain, or better yet, throw you out of your family?

I know what I would choose.

[Hobbit]

Wildbunch there is nothing sweeter in this world than hearing a Bloodhound bay!

Or my Border Collie howl. He has never barked, just howled. It's music.

[Hobbit]

It always amazes me the person that uses the "Landlord doesn't allow dogs" excuse, so I have to get rid of my dog. There are lots of other places to live or move.

I would not give up my dog(s) for anything; nor would I debark them. That is a personal thing, because I am confident in my handling of my dogs. Several of the loud barkers have been taught to "speak silently". It CAN be done.

BUT, I have to remember that some people just want the easy way out.