I think its safe...peeks head out.........

[Guest Anonymous]

I see :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

HnDMarshall, You must have just gotten a computer, or else you just discovered the world of dog forums.
I saw a ton of your posts over on usabreeders.com Have you made it to acme or nopuppymills.com ? Franks world is another popular dog board. About.com has a dogs forum with an opinionated lot.
This forum has a little different attitude then some of the dog boards. At least they talk about different things.

[Guest Anonymous]

:lol: I love guests like this they make my day a little brighter and make me laugh and smile!! Thank you guest!! :wink:

[Bensam]

What in the h*ll is going on out there, crossbred pugs, crossbred everything, 'Carlin Pinschers' crossbred Min.Pin/Pug.
WHY? WHY? WHY?
What is wrong with the breeds we already have?
What use are all these 'designer' breeds?
What can they do that is not already covered?

I dont care what the supposed reason is for all this garbage, it boils down to MONEY!!!! :x

Sorry, I'm sick at looking at these 'rare breed' sites and reading the hype about 'why' we must have them :evilbat:

Just hope 'Burke' never gets his eyes on some of these, he's enough trouble as it is.

[Guest Anonymous]

DreamWeaver napisał(a):

Donna, how long have you been a breeder. I found your name out from Rebecca Manns website. Hope you don't mind but if you do I will just call you by your screen name. I was wondering why this breed was created also. Do you think AKC would go for recognizing them because I don't think they would anytime soon, but then again I also think AKC is a load of huey sometimes.

I have always had dogs been breeding AB for 10+ years, had a couple of working heelers befor that when I lived on the farm. I guess a total of 20+ -30 years somewhere in there.

like I stated befor this was my first litter of Lo-Szes, one went back to the main breeding colony at Rebeccas and the other went way up to washington state. I have a special contract pending for the male and the other female I kept. I will see how she fares and watch her grow. who knows in two years perhaps she may be good enuff to breed and aid in expanding the bloodline. If she is not up to par she will make a great pet and possibly placed in a pet home but I think I will most likely keep her for ever. She has such a sweet disposition and is very very bright.

[Guest Anonymous]

bluebell napisał(a):

HnDMarshall, You must have just gotten a computer, or else you just discovered the world of dog forums.
I saw a ton of your posts over on usabreeders.com Have you made it to acme or nopuppymills.com ? Franks world is another popular dog board. About.com has a dogs forum with an opinionated lot.
This forum has a little different attitude then some of the dog boards. At least they talk about different things.

I have been online since 1995, mater a fact I have had nopuppymills.com on my favorits for quite sometime. I also have several others I visit, some you may not have even known about. You can email me the addys of other boards if you want I am always looking for informitive boards.

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

These designer breeds serve only one purpose: to make money for some puppy miller and/or backyard breeder. I really feel for the poor dogs that will be left behind when this fad fades in a few years. I am willing to bet my weekly charity (unemployment) that none of these designer breeders are reputable and willing to stand behind their breed. Their selling points have no valid research to back them up (hypoallergenic, no health problems like pure breds). I have been mad up to this point but the minute I see a Newf X, I am going to go ballistic! :evil:

Your concern is true and do apply in many cases.
Carlin Pinschers are not as new as you may think they were first origionally crossed in the 1800's in Germany. but at the time the purpose was to shorten the mini pins nose a bit, then the resulting offspring were bred back into the mini pin and so on.

Many and I do meen many of these desighner dogs as you call them will fall by the wayside, many others will wind up in rescue.

but then there are the few that will stay around and become respected breeds as did many many befor them. I believe the Lo-Sze is one of these breeds becouse of the care, regulations, and time and money going into the breed and dogs themselves.

I can not change your mind and I don't want to you have some very on target concerns. Very few of the founders of these breeds have taken all these concerns into consideration. Mainly becouse they are blinded by the money these dogs will fill there pocket with. But there are the exceptions who will and have stood by there dogs.

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

You are right...you will not change my mind. And I am not the only one who calls them "designer dogs". They have been labelled in the press as such. I find the whole practice disgusting and very decitful. The only life that suffers is the dog. I really don't believe that any of the breeds of these poor unfortunate souls will ever stand behind their dogs.

Please explain "stand behind there dogs"
can you also explain what is decietful?.
then perhaps I can explain more to you. or you could ask me questions.
yes there are those out there who are very decietfull and lie. but there are a select few who will tell you the truth, you just have to weed out the bad. know what to look for and do piles and piles of research.
becouse I believe we are talking about the same thing.
I go around the net and do research as a hobby on new breeds and breeds in development. I am subscribed to several email groups on the subject also. I am also subscribed to several rescue groups. as well as a few breed groups, takes me a half hour to go through all the info I recieve.

[ArtfulDodger]

I am violently opposed to puppy mills, pet shops and indiscriminate breeding of household pets without a licence and some sort of proof that the operation you are running is safe, kind to the animals and healthy. It must be proved that there is a willing and able market out there to be able to place all the offspring in good homes.

I do however concede that HnDMarshall has a point hidden in his rhetoric.
That point is this : We love our border collies, great danes, rotties, daschunds, labs, newfies etc etc etc We all say that they should be kept exclusively pure without another breed being constructed out of them and another fullblood dog of different breed.
What we must realise is that the pure bred dogs we rant about today were, 200 years ago depending on the breed, in fact the designer dogs of that era.
Yes, usually they were bred for a purpose, not just for the 'cutsie pie' factor they seem to be bred for today, but that really only applies to a few breeds and most were bred because they developed a fancy at the time. After they developed the fancy they were bred to follow a standard, because we all want a pretty dog, and not to do the work they were originally bred to do. It's just like today, we have waves of fashion in dogs. Whoever heard of a sharpei 20 years ago?? Now, who hasn't heard of a sharpei?
I love all dogs by the way, I'm not taking the pi** out of any breed, dogs are dogs in my mind, they're all as cool as each other.

All dogs are descended from wolves, so every domesticated dog is, by definition, a designer dog. The only real purpose I can see for new breeds are if they can be used to do some sort of work.
There are some very fine mixed breed pig hunting dogs in australia. They aren't recognised by any kennel club because they are bred purely as pigdogs in country areas, but they are all of like build, size, and colour. They are things like pitbull X German shorthaired pointer or staffordshire bull X whippet X beagle. These dogs have been bred because they are perfect for hunting pigs in australian conditions and I'm sure that if pig hunting stays alive and well, they will eventually be seen by the general public and become a recognised breed and household name.

My point is that we all own designer dogs, unless there's someone reading this who has a canis lupus in his lap.

[Guest Anonymous]

I do however concede that [b">

"
I do however concede that [b napisał(a):

HnDMarshall has a point hidden in his rhetoric.

Oh yea one thing....... I am a woman...at least last time I looked.

[ArtfulDodger]

Very sorry HnDMarshall I find it easier and more politically incorrect to say "he, his" etc when typing on the net until I know for sure. I know for sure know. :wink:

Dreamweaver, your life must be lonely with no alive dog you must be keen on getting another? May I suggest a pitbull, they are gorgeous dogs.

I'm sold on pitbulls long ago.

[Bensam]

Re the Carlin Pinschers--The Min. Pin. has always been bred for" "a whole head" not like a sparrows beak" - well developed muzzle which works itself strongly out of the skull", . There were originally two coat types, smooth and wire, smooth developed into the Min Pin, wire into the Affenpinscher. As late as 1700 breeders had not done much to separate the two coat types. When they were separated into two breeds, more likely this was where the Pug was used to shorten the head on the Affenpinscher. Min Pin standard calls for an elongated head.
It defies imagination to picture the supposed length of head on a Min Pin. if a Pug was used to shorten it.
History of the Min Pin. by Mrs Carl B. Cass would make good reading for anyone wanting to get their facts straight.
Repeat - Unless a new breed is being developed for a NEW specific purpose, there already are plenty of breeds to suit every need. This is only a fancy name for puppy farming. :evilbat:

[ILoveLabs]

Okay guys- I am just going to jump in here...lol

First of all, I disagree with mixing breeds- no matter how responsible you are, no matter how long you have been doing it- there is no need to do it!!! Just like the Labradoodle (or something like that- ha!)- they say they are making it for a breed that does not shed, and that people won't have allergies- well heck, just go get a dang standard poodle- don't be ruining the wonderful breeds that we have- and instead of making "new" breeds to please people, why don't you start saving the dogs that are in the shelters, day after day, more and more are put to sleep- they need a forever home, someone to love them

If your going to breed- than breed to better a breed all around...don't go making up a new breed just so it will become "popular". Its not needed- let me tell you, we are already overpopulated with dogs- mixes inparticular...

obviously the lab mixes in the shelters don't seem to be popular, seeing that there are so many being put down...


Whats going to be next? a chihauahound??? geeshus!!!! Instead- give out pamphlets telling people to go to their local shelters, theres so many suffering dogs there- waiting to go into a home where they will be loved. But no, us humans are stubborn- and we decide to bring more "unneeded" (not necessarily unwanted) dogs into this world..

well I am sick of crap happening and dogs taking the blame for it- oh well the dog didn't work out- so the dog gets sent to the shelter, sooner or later it will be put down- only because the humans didn't know what they were doing when they added a pup in their home. or just as simple as not getting your dog spayed or neutered...and oops, all the sudden your exepecting pups- well what happens when the complications come along? what happens when these pups come out unhealthy- are they going to have to live like that the rest of their lives? and most of these pups end up in homes that I would never want to see a pup end up in...

I have rescued two dogs, I am 16 myself- and let me say this- there are so many more out there that need homes....we don't need to be creating new breeds! What for? the money?? why can't people be happy with just a pug??? geesh! what are we doing to breeds? what is happening? where are our minds???

I am sorry if this offends you, but I won't sit back- and I will feel free to shout out my opinion anytime. I hope you know what you are doing each time you bring an unneeded litter of pups into this world...

The dogs in the shelters are just as important as your pug thingamagies- and they deserve the same amount of love, and the same chance to be placed in a wonderful home!

leave the breeding up to those who are experienced, up to those who know what they are doing- and who are in it to better a particular breed all around!!!

I am off my rant now..

[Guest Anonymous]

Bensam napisał(a):

Re the Carlin Pinschers--The Min. Pin. has always been bred for" "a whole head" not like a sparrows beak" - well developed muzzle which works itself strongly out of the skull", . There were originally two coat types, smooth and wire, smooth developed into the Min Pin, wire into the Affenpinscher. As late as 1700 breeders had not done much to separate the two coat types. When they were separated into two breeds, more likely this was where the Pug was used to shorten the head on the Affenpinscher. Min Pin standard calls for an elongated head.
It defies imagination to picture the supposed length of head on a Min Pin. if a Pug was used to shorten it.
History of the Min Pin. by Mrs Carl B. Cass would make good reading for anyone wanting to get their facts straight.
Repeat - Unless a new breed is being developed for a NEW specific purpose, there already are plenty of breeds to suit every need. This is only a fancy name for puppy farming. :evilbat:

Different countries do different things, if europe has its way there will be shorter eared hounds shorterbacked dochounds, longer muzzled pugs and bulldogs, non wrinkled sharpeis,shorter haired pekes and other long haired breeds.They have this planned and bills in the works to change many many of our beloved breeds. This proposistion is in the works there are sites up. they want to drasticly change the breeds we have now. All under the gueise to help them. I will try to relocate the sites and post them.
Also...... not all books give the same information or for that matter the truth. not saying he is wrong but he may be only touching on one countrys history of the breed. other countrys breed different ways. did he mention germany? or russia?

especially if you compare some AKC versions and breed club versions. of certian breeds.

[Guest Anonymous]

All of these dogs had homes, it is the people who need to take responsibility. Yo can't just take a pup and discard it later like garbage.
but this is a throw away society.

All breeds were mixes to begin with, You should be adressing those who are crossing and doing it haphazardly not organized. I do agree there are many dogs in shelters that deserve good homes I give out literature even posted some here and on USA board. I am active in rescue. I have strict provisions in my contracts to protect the dogs. All Lo-Szes are sold with S/n contracts unless going into the main colony or my breeding program.
I hand out a very scary letter about breeding your dog telling you of all the problems and costs that could and do acurr.

I know all about mills and shelters and dogs being put down, been to all.
my stepfather worked at a pound. Could tell yu some horror stories. Been to a mill and swept away a female black lab due to eat a bullet in the head becouse she could not produce any more I talked the person who was due to kill into letting me take her by picking her up and walking off with her. I told him if he was going to shoot her he had to go through me. I treated the dog for a year about and she died several months later due to complications. She had nevr seen grass and loved to roll in it, she was one of the most lovable dogs I ever met. I am proud I gave her the freedon she deserved I only wish she had more time to enjoy it. A day don't go by I don't think of the dogs I could not help.
as far as I know this man is still operating, since he does have a usda liscense and his kennels are clean there is nothing anyone can do to stop him. this man bragged he was one of the biggest suppliers of AKitas and labs in Texas even bregged about selling pups numbering in the hundreds to somewhere in florida. what this place in florida does with about 200-600 pups (labs) a year is beyond me but it can't be good.

So dont preach to a preacher et out there and do something!. I do.
I feel a person should take responsibility for there actions breeding and otherwise. If you breed you damn well be rescueing also.

I love the lo-sze dog they have charectoristics I have not seen in many breeds, they are very inteligent perhaps too inteligent. When young can climb like cats!. Very easy to train unlike a regular pug who is sometimes impossible to potty train. I like the colors not seen in the regular pug, body style different than the pug more like the peke but not quite. I like the short hair unlike the peke. They are thicker bodied than the chin and lack all the wispy hair. so you see they are a breed inthemselves.
I have taken my lo-sze's to a retirment comunity where they bring joy to residents. I have a brother inlaw in a wheel chair and they will lay on his lap and be stroked without a fuss.

I am not going to give up my children(dogs) to make anyone else happy they make me happy. I make a lifetime commitment to them even those I sell. I must and will remain a part of there lives.

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

These designer breeds serve only one purpose: to make money for some puppy miller and/or backyard breeder. I really feel for the poor dogs that will be left behind when this fad fades in a few years. I am willing to bet my weekly charity (unemployment) that none of these designer breeders are reputable and willing to stand behind their breed. Their selling points have no valid research to back them up (hypoallergenic, no health problems like pure breds). I have been mad up to this point but the minute I see a Newf X, I am going to go ballistic! :evil:

I can see it now. The first Original NEWFPOOS, or should it be poonewfs. or newfoodles. Hummmm, sure hope whoever trys that one, has the courtesy to use a girl newf & boy poodle.
It would be a non-shedding, people oriented loving dog, with a dry mouth. I could write a commercial for that one. Buy yourself a NewFoodle.
After thinking about it, I don't think you need to worry. Newfs don't live that long, and a person out to make big bucks on a cross is going to want a breed that will produce for a few years. :roll: :evil:

[Kiger]

NewPoos :o :lol:
Geez, I kill me.

[Guest Anonymous]

Time for my 2 cents....

OKay now i realize that all the good points have been made but lets take a look back. HnDMarshall breeds these little puggy-spotty-dogs, they are cute and thats great, she also has contracts and money to stand behind her canines, that as well is great. Now what happens when people buy your cutsie little minis and decide hey i want to be a breeder too? yeah i know that your 'tm' stops mills but if someone buys your dog and one from someone elses that is technically okay. and thats how it starts you may be very careful but what about the next guy. breeding dogs that are unsound or dogss that have problems indiscriminately. That is the downfall of alomst all dog breeds. do you require spay/ neuters? if not, why? I may have missed it but what exactly do these dogs do, is this another of the companion breeds...

[Guest Anonymous]

Which shows is it that you find to be meaningless? Conformation shows which allows breeders to exhibit and confirm the direction of their breeding programs, while at the same time being an invaluable tool for representing breeds to the public and helping to educate about responsible breeding? Or is it obedience and agility that you refer to.....AKC sponsored shows that allow dogs and their humans to present a beautiful bond, exhibit their long hours of devoted teamwork and encourage proper training in the general public? Are these shows that you have the audacity to call meaningless? Pu-lease. I would also like to know how the rigid standard for my breed (which is of course the one I know most about) which was developed by a team of devoted breeders, exhibitors, and vets is ridiculous. These standards are not developed by the AKC, they have been passed down since the origins of the breeds and improved upon by breed clubs who have nothing but the best interests and future of their breeds at heart......I find that very difficult to view as ridiculous.

Trinity

[Guest Anonymous]

Hmmmmm I do not know.. :lol: :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='newfiemom']What I meant by "decitful" is the propaganda that goes behind selling these designer dogs. "They are healthier than pure breeds" and "They are hypoallergenic" are my two personal favorite. These are out and out lies. :

You are talking about Desighner dogs in general, yes what you say is true on the most part. but the lo-sze has made no such claims, health problems for all breeds used are on the site. and they are not hypoallergenic. But my statement becouse of the quality of the dogs used in the program is only a cleft pallet is the only major problem that has exposed itself in the breeding program and that dog was saved and is now Beccas pet, his story is on the site. she did not hide this fact.

[quote name='"What type of research has been done to prove these statements? Is there any health testing done on the dogs before they are bred? How about temperment testing? It takes alot to breed two dogs. A breeder could the best of two specimins and still not breed. Reputable and responsible breeders will breed their dogs for the betterment of the breed. How are these designer dogs bettering any breed? :[/quote']

You speak wards of wisdom, yes you are true again, and all to assure the best dogs are being used is being done. And since linebreeding plays a huge part in this project it will bring out any defects in any dogs which we have been very lucky. Which also indicates our lines are sound. except for the cleft pallet thing. But we have to be very carefull about outside outcrosses we may use.
The desighner breeds are not bettering any origional breed other than themselves , that is a silly question.

[quote name='"Reputable and responsible breeders will stand by their dogs. They have health guarantees, will take the dog back in case the owner of one of their dogs cannot take care of it. Some will even go as far as to help an owner pay for medical expenses. A reputable breeder will be there to answer questions and address concerns. These designer dog people will be long gone with their money.:[/quote']

Again wards of wisdom and very true for the most part. but we keep in touch and will take dogs back regardless of age. and help out where we can.

[quote name='"Yes the pure breds we have today are from mixes. However, the modern breeds we have today have evolved and were bred to serve a purpose. It took years and years to get the breeds we have today and with each breeding, it was for the betterment of the breed, to make them healthier, stronger, better at the task they are to perform. .:[/quote']

If all of what you said was for the betterment of the breed then why are so many in such trouble with health issues and such. you see you can not generalize everyone into groups. or steriotype breeders yes there are those out there bettering the breed and yes there are those out there abusing it . what task did the toy poodle or Chi have? and other such breeds?.

[quote="So again I will pose the question, what is the purpose of mixing breeds. Are these dogs doing any kind of work that is not already covered by today's breeds? Are these designer dogs going to go the channels of the AKC and become registered purebreds? I really have my doubts about that one. :roll:

Again you are speaking in general, I can not answer for the other breeds but yes some are serving a purpose, some are working dogs, there is a breed being developed up in canada that is part husky and part african wild dog, these dogs have a very sensitive noes and are being trained as bomb, drug and other such dogs. The program shows much promis. aparrently there nose is much more sensitive than the common dog.

as for AKC I hope they never get ahold of my breed of dogs. But they do have a sub registry for recording rare and potential breeds for future recongnition. Many are taking advantage of it and will in time have recongnition.

Akc would not and could not abide by the regulations used by this breed the Lo-Sze so no I don't see them registered with them any time at all.
besides they are a millers wonderland. although they are taking steps to clean up there act. but the millers now have these other registries to go to and some don't even charge fees. look on puppymills.com for the list of registries they have some of them there.

I must say you are very polite and speak truth. but I am not defending all those other so called breeds ligit or not ,only mine. I can not controll what the other breeders do or who they are swindling. I only know my breed and what I am doing to protect it.

[Guest Anonymous]

ROTT'N'PIT napisał(a):

Time for my 2 cents....

OKay now i realize that all the good points have been made but lets take a look back. HnDMarshall breeds these little puggy-spotty-dogs, they are cute and thats great, she also has contracts and money to stand behind her canines, that as well is great. Now what happens when people buy your cutsie little minis and decide hey i want to be a breeder too? yeah i know that your 'tm' stops mills but if someone buys your dog and one from someone elses that is technically okay. and thats how it starts you may be very careful but what about the next guy. breeding dogs that are unsound or dogss that have problems indiscriminately. That is the downfall of alomst all dog breeds. do you require spay/ neuters? if not, why? I may have missed it but what exactly do these dogs do, is this another of the companion breeds...

There are provisions in the contract to prevent non aproved breeders, there are not many breeders and all are aware and corospond. Becca has even gone as far as to sugest we s/n befor the dogs leave which is proble better becouse they could still breed to a non lo-sze and sell colored pups.
but what can they get with no papers or pedigree? no paperwork is sent untill the dogs are s/n. I require all pups s/n and so does becca.

these dogs are entertainers, companions,therope dogs, varmit hunters, and little guard dogs!. My one female won't bark so much like the other but will come in and jump on me then run for the door then come jump on me again and run for the door all befor anyone even knocks. They are ver very inteligent and we are finding they are very quick to learn with each generation. They need to have there paws in everything you do. and inspect everything.
What really messes them up is if you move something in the house or add something new they know it.

[Guest Anonymous]

was there another poster who was deleted? who are you responding to? a few of you posts don't seem to be directed toward me but to a possible troll????.

was there a post deleted?

man I can not tell who anyone is talking to here. is there some way to id what post is replying to what post?

[Guest Anonymous]

Some posts by Newfie and myself were directed towards Dreamweaver, whose posts have since been deleted.....it does look a little confusing now doesn't it?

Trinity

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

Then if these mixed breeds are not for the betterment, why bother to breed them at all? To me, it makes no sense. Like I have said before, although I have some issues with the AKC, I would never buy a dog that is not registered and one the I have not looked at the pedigree. Although two of my dogs are from Canada, they are registed to Canada's equivalent of the AKC and I have looked at all of my dogs' pedigrees. I would never buy a dog that did not have a pedigree. I am sorry but I will never buy into the whole designer dog thing. To me, they will always be mutts. I would still love a mutt as much as one of my newfs but I would never pay the outrageous prices they want for these dogs and I would get one from a shelter which is already flooded with these designer breeds.

again you misunderstand, they are for the betterment of themselvesthe breed Lo-Sze, ot the pug or the peke ot the chin they are themselves a breed becouse they are nolonger a peke a pug or a chin.

as for registerd yes they are not AKC but they are registerd and where did you get they had no pedigree did I not say records are kept. every dog in the ped is recorded with the registry. any and all outcrosses are recorded and charted also. How can you build a foundation if you don't know what materials you are working with?
the price is set as to what goes into the dog, if the dog were cheap it would compete with shelter dogs we don't want that. If someone is concerned about the high price they always have the shelters I always refer people to the shelters. I also get requests to search for people to find certian dogs I search the rescue and shelter sites , if I locate one I send the person looking there, the rest is up to them I charge nothing for this.
like I stated befor I am subscribed to several rescue groups

I know some people will never accept new breeds so be it.