What does everybody think about this?

[gooeydog]

A baby was attacked by the family dachshund, and there's a lot of debating going on about whether it should have been PTS or not (it has been, but there's still speculation as to whether it was the right choice). Here's a link to the story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42091-2002Dec26.html

And here's the board where they were discussing it: http://dachshundzone.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001712.html

[alicat613]

I think I'm still scared of Dachsunds! :D

Hmmm...I just don't know what I really think. What a terrible thing to happen.

[bullygirl29532]

as i always say "don't fix the blame, fix the problem" and i think any dog that attacks any human should be pts. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not talking about nips, growls or other misc signs that mean stay away. I;m talking about going for the throat, i'm gonna take you down attack. must be put down. i say this because most owners and the general public don't have the time, resources, or ideas on how to resocialize the dog. or if it would even work. If this dog was a big breed, i doubt anyone would stick up for it's life and the child would be dead.

[bullygirl29532]

I agree Mei. where were the parents?????? Common sense is never let someone who can't defend themselves alone w/ a dog no matter what.we al know that "common sense" is not so common. whats done is done and you can't change that. I love lecter and my daughter but god forbid if anything every happened to her, i'd put him down. it would break me heart but i'd have to and i'd feel guilty everyday of my life that I LET IT happen.

[mouseatthebusstop]

:cry: what was a six week old baby doing in a playpen, I did not use one untill about 7 months old. The parents should have ran at the first squeal, a mother knows an urgent cry

[mcobbin]

I think I'm still scared of Dachsunds!

Hmmm...I just don't know what I really think. What a terrible thing to happen.

ha ha ha!! i actually AM scared of dachsunds :o a car lot owner had his dogs on site and unsupervised and as i was perusing the newest model of fords, he took a 2 inch deep and two inch wide plug out of my leg!!

seriously though, i agree with everyone:
1. the kid was too young to be in a playpen :o
2. the parents should never have left him alone with a dog that hasn't had more than 6 weeks to get used to the new addition to the family.
3. the dog should NOT be a babysitter
4. and the dog should have been placed in a home without babies

[eggrolyn1223]

Did any of you go on the :( Poor dog... :cry: dachshundzone site?There was one member that said the dog was to blame for the child's injuries...I tried to post but guests can't post in that forum...

[ArtfulDodger]

I agree with bullygirl, if a dog seriously attacks a human being that dog should be disposed of. I can see that it' s not the dog's fault and that the parents should have been more vigilant, but the fact remains the dog is dangerous and should not be allowed to be around young people. Not to mention the fact that what's to stop the owner of the dog breeding from it and possibly passing this temprement problem on?

As bully girl said, if it was a larger breed the dog would have been put to sleep immediately but because it's a cute daschund there is debate about what should happen to it.
A larger breed would probably have killed andrew and if the daschund had more time with the baby it would probably have killed him too.

I figure we HAVE to make laws about dog ownership, it's unavoidable because there are so many dogs out there. So, if we make a law that a dangerous dog should be destroyed then we should stick to it no matter what the breed happens to be.
I don't know how many times I have been harrassed by territorial toy breeds and small terriers like silkies, aussies, jack russells etc when I'm out walking. These little dogs can be very angry little customers and if they were a larger breed they would attack without hesitation. We all know a person with a nasty little dog who barks and snaps and nips at people, imagine if that dog was the size of a labrador, say your prayers!!!

It should never have happened in the first place, the parents must shoulder the whole responsibility. The kid's wounds are their fault and so is the death of what could have been a lovely little dog.

We must remember tho that in a pack society (the only society dogs understand) any miscreants or anti social dogs are killed or chased out of the pack never to be allowed to return.

[bk_blue]

I have also met many small dogs that have felt they have something to prove while most of the big dogs I've met have been fairly easygoing. This is only in my own experience and I don't speak for everyone.

It's very sad that this was allowed to happen. Irresponsible people should not be allowed to have dogs. Any fool knows dachshunds aren't the greatest dogs around kids (though I have never had any problems with them myself) and no child should be left unsupervised around dogs. No excuses. These people lost their dog, their child has serious injuries and it's mainly their own fault. I don't know if legislation is going to make people any smarter. I wonder if this couple thought about what effect the dog would have on the baby and vice versa, whichever came first- having pets or children is a huge decision and everything should be planned out and these sorts of incidents can happen, and that has to be factored in.

I don't care what breed the dog is, if it's not taught to be socialised around children of all ages it's not going to know what's acceptable and what isn't. There are SOME dogs that are just wired wrong- but only a tiny percentage. The rest of it is up to us and we have that responsiblity to our pets because they can't do it themselves.

[wildbunch]

:cry:
I won't say anymore.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='ArtfulDodger']

I don't know how many times I have been harrassed by territorial toy breeds and small terriers like silkies, aussies, jack russells etc when I'm out walking. These little dogs can be very angry little customers and if they were a larger breed they would attack without hesitation. We all know a person with a nasty little dog who barks and snaps and nips at people, imagine if that dog was the size of a labrador, say your prayers!!!


An Aussie? If you are referring to an Australian Shepherd, they are not a Terrier.

And who's responsible for these nasty little dog's temperment? THEIR OWNER.......it's NOT the dogs fault, they have been ALLOWED to act like this by their irresponsible owner! AND should NOT have to pay the ultimate price (their life) when they do bite someone.

[Guest Anonymous]

It is very rare for a dog of any breed to suddenly just attack anyone. THere are sign, a look, a posture something that a vigilant owner can detect and correct before it escalates. Now when you put a dog into the hands of someone who obviously doesnt think enough of human life; Leaving thier baby alone; the sign are generally just ignored or they tell the dog to go lay down but dont correct the behavior. That is where this starts and now because they didne deserve a child or a dog they lose one and possibly the other, in this case they have just damaged the baby for life.

Now I am a firm beliver that it is because of the owner that dogs behave in ANY way. If you have a good dog you made it, if you have a savage beast chained in the backyard, guess who did it? It sux that the dogs have to pay for the owners ignorance and lack of patience, but the law of the land states it as such.

[bk_blue]

Hobbit, I think Dodger was referring to Australian Terriers- they kind of look like a Yorkshire Terrier but not as silky. We don't have many, if any, Australian Shepherds here which is kind of funny!

[ArtfulDodger]

The case here is that the daschund attacked a defenceless, non threatening baby. :o
This shows complete and utter disregard for humans on the dog's part. Andrew wasn't trying to steal his bone or poking him in the eye with his thumb or jumping on him while he was asleep. He was laying down like a small baby does. This means the dog meant malicious harm to the child. Yes, he was being a dog and asserting his place in the pack, but the child was human, not another dog, and as such should be recognised as a no go area. Sometimes you just get mean and bad tempered dogs, much like you get mean and bad tempered humans. I think this daschund was one such dog. The Hannibal Lecter of the dog world.

Call me crazy, but to me a dog that doesn't have an inherant respect and love for humans, no matter what age, should never be bred from unless they are bred as guards. Even the most abused dog will not bite, look at the way most rescued fighting dogs behave. Totally mauled and abused and still wagging their tails and ready to lick the face of a stranger.
Sure, if you are aware that your dog doesn't like kids, other dogs, adult humans, cats etc, and you can be absolutely sure that you will never allow the dog to be in the situation where he can bite such a thing then you and your dog should lead a nice happy life together.

The reality is that any dog that shows aggression is dumped by the owner who can't be bothered dealing with it and taking the necessary precautions. Then the dog is killed by the authorities because a home can't be found for it.
The reason there are so many dog attacks these days is because there are so many people who buy a dog and think how "cute" it'd be if their little bitch had puppies. Then they find a dog they think would make a nice father to these puppies and they put him over their dog. There is rarely any background check into the father's temprement or indeed the mother's temprement, all the bitch's owner sees is a cute litter of fluffballs, more often than not cross breeds, playing by the fire.

Then the fluffballs are sold or given away and, if they are not dumped at a dog shelter somewhere, the cycle starts again. Not to mention all the professional puppy mills out there!!!
With the number of dogs in our communities expanding almost exponentially, the maths suggests that there is going to be an increase in dog/human attacks and an increase in the number of bad tempered dogs, like our friend hannibal the daschund.
As a result, common sense tells me that we can't pussyfoot around watching the problem escalate, we must act now and nip it in the bud. Make it illegal to advertise dogs unless you have a licence to breed them maybe??? Shut down petshops that sell kittens and pups. Or offer free neutering/spading clinics and dog training classes, advertise good dog ownership, educate more.
How do we pay for all this?? Higher dog registration fees, this will sort the true dog lovers from the ones who have watched a Lassie movie. We can't overcharge because the poorest person still has the right to have a dog if it can be looked after properly.
There must be a way around this problem but it's not breed specific legislation or knee jerk reaction. It must be methodical and painstaking and dare I say it RUTHLESS. Short term pain for long term gain. The dogs and humans would be the eventual winners.

[gooeydog]

The case here is that the daschund attacked a defenceless, non threatening baby.

Could it not have been an intense prey drive that had never been properly directed, and since there was noone there to correct the dog (thus stopping the behavior), the moving, wriggling baby was to much for it to resist? I'm not saying that the dog wasn't possibly trying to move up in rank (or anything else) but it may not have necessarily been acting "maliciously". I think it was definitely owner error, and though I have no idea why the dog acted as it did, I don't really agree with the dog being placed. With so many dachsies in rescues/shelters already, rescuers need to choose the best cantidates for placement, because not all will find homes, and (IMO) a dog that would need so much work/such a careful home would not be a good cantidate for placement. It would be nice if there were enough people clambering for dogs that even the "special" ones could find people willing to work with them, but things aren't that way, so people can only do what they can. Also, thinking back to what happened with my aunts dogs and her baby, I don't think I'd feel comfortable knowing that the 2 dogs involved in that had been placed in new homes... I'd always be kinda waiting to hear about them on the news again (if that makes any sense). There's also the liability to consider (for the rescue), what if the dog somehow managed to bite another person? And if he was successfully placed, how would his new owners see him? Would they ever be able to completely trust him, knowing he had almost killed a baby? I know these are a lot of things that don't really have answers, and may not even be relevent, but they're things to think about in a situation like this.

[ArtfulDodger]

Maybe it was intense prey drive Gooey??
Even still, I think prey drive can be overcome by pack structure rules. My dogs have intense prey drive but they know not to explode into action when my cat runs swiftly past their noses. If the cat surprises them and sprints past when they are not expecting it, they do jump up and look ready for the chase but they recognise the cat as a no go zone and sit back down again. If the cat were a pig I wouldn't be able to strop them.
Although I trust my dogs implicitly I would stilll NEVER leave them unattended with a baby or a child. I'm confident nothing would happen but there's no point in taking the chance and risking someone's life.

[gooeydog]

[quote name='ArtfulDodger']Maybe it was intense prey drive Gooey??
Even still, I think prey drive can be overcome by pack structure rules.
I agree that even intense prey drive can be controlled in most cases, but this dog may never have been taught what was suitable prey and what wasn't, and so didn't even realize that it was "against the rules". Also, it may have been "containing itself" while they were there (to avoid punishment), but when they weren't, figured there weren't any consequences, so why not go after the baby? We have a Mini Dachsie, she's got high prey drive (if it moves, she wants it), and I wouldn't trust her (not for a second) with a young child/baby unattended, but she's ok if I'm there. You also have to consider that a lot (definitely not all) of small dog owners let their dogs get away with things because they're small and "can't hurt anything"... then when they do hurt something, they say they "never had a clue the dog would act like that" and "don't know how it happened".

[ArtfulDodger]

Very true Goo
we don't know the history of the daschie, it may well have been trained to go for anything that moves. I still think that a dog should instictively know not to bite a human under any circumstances, unless it's a wild dog then all bets are off.
As we domesticated dogs, or as they domesticated us, an understanding was formed that one does not bite the hand that feeds it.

This is just a theory but I would suggest that if we were to conduct a temprement comparison with the average dog today and the average dog of ... say 300 years ago, we'd find that the 300 year dog had a more stable temprement than the one today. This would be because 300 years ago a dog was either a privilage or a working colleague and was strictly bred to be person friendly. It's no good if the colleague you have to work with every day bites all your clients. Of course this is an unprovable hypothesis but I have a more current example which might help say what I'm trying to say.
On aboriginal camps in the aussie outback there are always a dozen dogs roaming around for company and for hunting partners. These dogs, although very wary of strangers, are totally trustworthy around the children and adults in the camp. Out there in the bush it's a matter of HAVING to obey the rules or you end up sunny side up on the coals in the fire that evening. As result, any pups that show signs of being antisocial to the humans in the camp are culled and only dogs that are efficient hunters and stable around humans are kept and bred from.
In western, capitalist society we have enough money to not have to worry about whether we can afford to feed a dog so we keep them and breed from them indiscriminately and pass their aggressive tendencies off as cute little idiosyncracies when in fact they are seeds of destruction in the big scheme of things.
I don't claim to be above all this, my dogs are as much a product of their environment as anybody else's.

[eggrolyn1223]

Are there any actually truly "malicious", and "evil" dogs?I think dogs all think in one way..they don't try to be mean....they're just acting on instinct...

[Guest Anonymous]

There are dogs out there that are just mean. There was another thread about this, Im not sure which. Basically saying that there are dogs that, even with socializaion and training that just inherit bad temperments and tendencies from the parents and are short tempered or nippy. Now I do belive that all behaviors can be corrected, so even if you were to get one of these bad seeds witht the right amount of time and training you could definately over come it. This is just to say that there are dogs that are born "bad" (i hesitate to say it).

There is no excuse for the people in this particular scenario, they need take a serious look at thier lives before even thinking of another dog of any breed. It obvious they either cant or dont train to begin with.