Need Help With Aggressive Dog!! (LONG)

[Guest Anonymous]

Hello group.
Well, as some of you may know, I have an aggressive dog. There were some other post about it under "Preformance Dogs" that was started by me. I'm posting this now for more opinions about this one topic. Maybe I'll be able to get some more ideas/suggestions thrown my way, that might be able to help me! :D I've also read some of the post at "What to do with a young, aggressive dog" (started by Aroura). But since this was mainly about two females fighting, it didn't help me so much.

8) First, a little History about Hazel (my dog): 8)
Hazel is now Four Years old (her b-day was Dec. 3, (we had a cake and everything! LOL No chocolate of corse!) She is an Australian Shepherd + Border Collie. She's lived with us since she was a puppy, and came from a farm that lived outside of a town away from here (if that's making sence!). When she was 6 months old, I put her in agility classes. She had a lot of fun (no jumps and big obsticals of corse!), but soon started showing signs of aggression. At the time I hadn't even HEARD of aggression, so didn't know. I though she was just being a puppy, and it was one of those things she'd grow out of. She'd nip and growl and bark at other people and dogs. Class went on for I think it was about maybe 3 months. Next summer it started up again, and of course I signed Hazel up right away. By then her aggression was getting wrose, and I was just begining to understand exactlly what was going on.
We live outside of town, and therefore, it's often hard to get Hazel sociolized, I thought for sure the Agility would have helped, but I was wrong. My instructors told me to always keep a muzzel on Hazel, and away from everyone else. They would give the leasson, and I would not hear it half the time because I was ocupied with keeping my dog undercontrol. Quiet often they had to show me over again, away from everyone else. Hazel liked the instructors, it took a while, but she soon loved them (and their cookes more then mine!!). It took her even longer to warm up to their dogs, and even then she still didn't always trust them.
After some while, Hazel must have been about 2 1/2 by then, the instructors told me that whens he acts aggressively, to "scruff" her. (For those of you who don't know what this is, it is when you pick the dog up by the scruff. They would hold her up into their faces, and "growl" and yell right into her face). I also got worried when they did this with her, but I trusted them since I figured they had experiance with dogs (why else would they be able to teach?!). About a month went by of this, and Hazel couldn't go around anyone but me and my familly. That's when I noticed the problem was getting worse. Hazel would bark/growl/lunge/snap at any other dog or person. I started doing my research. I found out what they were doing was actually making the problem worse! Right away I pulled her out of class. Unfortanatly, this was only a few weeks after the third season of Agility started, my dad payed $60 for nothing, that we never got back :x
It must have been not even two weeks after she was pulled out of class and working with me that I began to see improvements. Little ones, but that's better then nothing.
We had to tie up Hazel (starting when she was about 2) because it turned out every morning she was chasing and nipping at the anckles of one of our neighbors!
I read that being tied up can actually make the aggression worse because when the dog lunges at something, it will be snapped back on the chain. The dog will asociate this pain to whatever it is focusing on... this would be the person or dog. Making her want to act out aggressivly even more!
Not only was she aggressive, but her health wasn't too good. She had hot spots, dry coat, and dry skin. As well as her "figure" wasn't looking too good. It was either she was overweight, or looking too skinny. She tended to get sick quit often as well. We tried switching her food, changing her enviroment, and giving her more exersize, but none of it worked. I discoved the BARF diet, did my research for a few months (as well as my mom, she's on a actually quiet simular diet as the dog, although she's not eating the raw meat part!! :wink: . So she was able to help me out, and is currently learning to become a nutritionist... but enough about that...). Once I felt confident enough that I had enough knowledge, and had the vets number posted, and a BARF forum on Faves, I started her on the diet, Within weeks I saw improvements, and although I complain about how gross it looks, I would NEVER go back to kibble in my whole life ever again, for ANY of my dogs! It helped clear up all her problems. She also seemed like a much happier dog!


It has almost been two weeks now that I've had Hazel in the house. We've gone through a LOT of training, and a LOT of bathes, but she's getting better. She's starting to feel so much more comfrotable around people in the house, and is (FINALLY!) starting to catch onto the house rules. Although this is helping a lot, she still becomes afraid, and/or aggressive when a visitor comes to our house (although that isn't very often, it still hapens).
I've been told to keep her in my room (or her crate, but lately she's got something against it!) if it's someone who doesn't visit often. But if it's someone who does, to start slowly, and far away. Since our house is big, but not THAT BIG, I guess this would be; when someone's in the dinning room (where the visitors usally are), to bring her into the livingroom, which would be about... 3 - 3 and a half meters from the guest. Unfortanatlly, this is the farthest away from them I can have her, unless she's around the corner, down the hall or something.
I think maybe I can lead her past the dinning room, into the kitchen, give her a treat from in there, then lead her back into my room (which means she has to pass by them again). Maybe, depending on how she feels, I'll do it up to 2 times that the guest is there... does this sound about right?

I've tried soooo many methods, and most all of them have failed, so if I seem like I'm regecting a sugestion, I'm so sorry! I will try to be as open minded as possible, and try what is aggreed to help! THank you so much in advance for the replies! Sorry it's so long, but I figured it's best to post all the information now, before you reply with questions that I feel stupid I hadn't added the answers in this!
But if you do ask some questions that i forgot to add in the info about, sorry, and I will be happy to reply ASAP.
More info about my dog can be found at www.geocities.com/fly_n_woof/
Thanks once again! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi,

I'd like to suggest the yahoo group, agbeh

[Mary's Mama]

Have you ever used a gentle leader? I would say when introducing her to ppl that she be on a leash with the gentle leader. I would even think about keeping her on the leash/gentle leader attached to your hip the entire time you are home with her. This way at the first sign of any aggression you are directly there to correct and she will learn that you are in charge. Do this until you feel comfortable that she has earned the right to be free. Also make sure the guest has a treat to give her. Also, many ppl reach for the top of the dogs head when they are petting, this often frightens dogs. It is easier for her if they reach for her chest, under her chin btwn her front legs. This is not as threatening. Start with getting her used to ppl first. Find voluteers of ppl she has never seen before such as co workers or someone from your vets office.

In this situation, you can use the gentle leader to correct her if she becomes aggressive, and she will begin to associate visitors with treats. But as newfie said, you really need to have her checked out at a vet, it seems their may be some underlying reason for her aggression. Have her eyes and ears checked as well the blood work suggested earlier. Good luck.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yup, I do have a gentle leader that I use, but I don't want to use it all the time, so I've been using training and such to control her instead, but I still use the gentle leader when out. I did know about the reaching over the dogs head thing, and I try to tell people not to do that, but most people are too afraid to come near her, and if they do, she can "smell" their fear, and gets more ancious (sp?).
hypothyroidism?! What's THAT?!!!! I just asked my friend Mandi what it was, and she explained it's something to do with the glands (that are like under the neck or something) that produce too much of a hormone or something? But what EXACTLLY is it?! Your getting me worried! As soon as you said to take her to the vet to get checked, my heart lept into my throat!!!
Also, how much would it cost to get this done? Since she's my dog, I'm expected to pay at least half of her vet bill, and I'm currently without any money ('cept the dollar I borrowed from my cuz for lunch today!!) I'm only 15, so my parents would pay for the rest of the bill.
If I knew now what it was, I could at least look for a job, or help around the house and use that to pay a bit now, and pay the rest after for my parents.
Is the hypothyroidism serious? If it's a health problem, wouldn't it be helped at least a LITTLE bit by her diet that I switched her onto? Or is it like a herited or "fluke" sort of thing, not nutrition linked?
Thanks for your replies!

Oh, and i think I've checked out that yahoo group, but I can't seem to figure out how to work them, but, I'm sure I can get it!
Thanks once again for your replies!

P.S.
I'm on the school computer right now, that's why I'm not logged into my account!

[Mary's Mama]

Hazel Nut Meg napisał(a):

Yup, I do have a gentle leader that I use, but I don't want to use it all the time, so I've been using training and such to control her instead, but I still use the gentle leader when out.

I understand that you need to do what you feel best, however, as you described the situation, its sounds bad enough that regardless of what you "want" to do, some things are just necessary. I guess it makes me question your desire and dedication to truely correct this issue.

Also, I should hope that your parents are understanding enough that if the dog actually has a serious illness that needs treatment they would not deny the dog the appropriate treatment b/c you can't pay for half.

To the rest of the readers: This is a perfect example of why children, regardless how old, should not be expected to be "responsible" for a pet. Many things are out of human control, that a child does not have the resources to handle. Just something to keep in mind. :D

[Guest Anonymous]

You don't think I want to help my dog Mary's Mama?

I guess it makes me question your desire and dedication to truely correct this issue.

Uh, thanks... even though OBVIOUSLY I do if I'm up here asking for help! I've asked SOOO many people, and such for YEARS about her "aggression". And if it's serious, my parents will pay for it, but out of my heart I will work to pay for the other half. They said I need to pay for half for shots, check up and such.
It does sound really serious... I'm getting so scared... When newfiemom wrote down the symptoms, I went through in my mind and checked off what she's got... she doesn't have a lot of REALLY serious ones, but it makes me worry a lot.
I'm going to print out everything i can find on it, and sit down with my parents tonight and talk to them about it.
I just told my mom after I got home from school, and she told me not to worry, and that it will go away with this diet she's on, but it'll just take time... but I don't think just the diet alone is guna cure it. Pluse, ya know, she COULD not have it, better safe then sorry to get her check out eh?
Thanks newfiemom for posting that, and bring this to my attention! I'll keep you posted about what my parents have to say after I sit them down and talk to them, as soon as I can!

I have seen:
Mental Dullness Vomitting
Weight Gain Change in Appetite
Dry, scaly skin
dull coat
skin infections
Separation Anxiety
Emotional instability/aggression
Shying away from strangers

in her... the Vomiting not so much, although a few times she has for no reason, including last nite was actually the last time she has... but before that it had been months since, so it could be just something she ate... but you never know :(
:cry: I will try everything I can for her... I'm sure if I talk to my parents and show them, they'll understand, but they are a little "buget" when it comes to money, and don't like taking the dog to the vet much... but I'm sure they'll understand once I explain it to them!

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree wholeheartedly w/Newfie Mom. You do need a behavorist to evaluate her. It sounds like a bit of fear aggression, and that type can be the most dangerous to people and other animals. A good behaviorist can determine her aggression type and give you some helpful info.

My friend has a female boxer whom she rescued from deplorable conditions and treatment. It took a long time to get her to even relax in her new home. She was not dog aggressive, as she had 2 other boxers living in the new home. When company came over, she became a basket case no actual biting, but wariness, uncomfortable, and sometimes snapping at guests. The behavorist suggested that when you knew people were coming over and to invite people often to put her in a tie down, do not let the guests acknowledge her presence, and to not coddle her. They had to act like she was not even there. The two other dogs were there mingling w/guests as usual. It is now several months later, and there is great improvement. She is still on tie down when people come in, and the guests may not go up to her. She is then taken off the tie down, and she now willingly goes up to people trying to get them to notice her. They can talk to her when she comes up to them and only then. It is an on going thing but well worth the money spent. I wish you good luck.

[Carolk9s]

Shara,
My belgian Jesse has hypothyroidism. He was tested and diagnosed about two years ago. It CAN be treated. I chose to have the testing sent to Michigan State University, it is a bit less expensive to have local labs do the testing but I had heard MSU was one of the best and most reliable for this testing so that's where I had his sent. The test is not cheap but not horribly expensive (in my opinion). It was right about $78 U.S.
Jesse has to take 4 thyroid pills a day, two in the morning and two in the evening. I did find that buying a large quantity of pills (1000 at a time) is much cheaper.
My vet did not think he was a low thyroid dog as he was of proper weight. The ONLY symptom I saw that prompted me to have his tested was that his coat became VERY dry and brittle. As my vet would have expected him to be overweight, I reminded her that he was a very active agility dog. His training and trialing kept his weight down.
Two years later, he is still active and does the occaisional agility at lowered jump heights. He is now 11, he will of course be on the thyroid pills for the rest of his life.
I agree that it would be a very good idea to have Hazel checked over and get some bloodwork done including the thyroid test. See if you can make a deal with your folks to pay it back to them over time. While I don't think you need to panic 8) , it is something that should be done as soon as you are able.
BTW, what do you know of Hazel's sire and dam? Do you know if either of them was aggressive or had an unstable temperament? Does the farm where Hazel came from have both parents or was this a fly by night love tryst? Sometimes you really have to be a detective to find the buried answer.
I wish you luck in your quest to find out how to soothe Hazels fears, calm her aggressiveness, and show her that life can by joyful-not scary.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks Carolk9s! Knowing that you've had the experiance, and are telling me not to panic, that DOES help! However, I sat my parents down, talked to them, my mom said "Don't worry, this diet will help it, it'll just take time" and my dad said "no she doesn't" :roll: I told dad I felt really strongly about getting her tested, and that I would even pay for it when I get the money, and he said that I can do that... problem is getting the money! My dad isn't very open minded by the way.
If it's something that doesn't need to be done RIGHT AWAY, then I should be able to come up with the money... $78 U.S.? What is that in Canada?
I found a GREAT website that gave me TONES of info I printed out. And it did say it wasn't too expensive.
Well, sorry, I have to go like RIGHT NOW, but I'll try to reply some more when I can!
Thanks for all of your support!!

[gooeydog]

Mary's Mama napisał(a):

This way at the first sign of any aggression you are directly there to correct and she will learn that you are in charge.

You're not really supposed to use head collars to correct dogs, they work by "leading" the dog smoothly into what you want them to do, not pulling like you would for a correction. You also have to be careful with a dog that lunges at people/other dogs, because 1) the GL/Halti can slip off (even if properly fitted) if the dog turns the right way, and 2) the dog can injure it's neck/back if it hits the end of the leash with a GL on.

[Carolk9s]

While I agree that putting a hand over a defensive/aggressive dogs head might be threatening to the dog, I do not suggest reaching down to rub the chest either, think of where your face is likely to be at that time. I think with a defensive/aggressive dog it's best to take it very slow and even let the dog initiate contact. Maybe once the dog has started thinking you are not so bad, a shoulder scratch or even a butt scratch to break the ice. Depends a lot on the dog and of course a lot on the person. Someone who is nervous about touching a defensive/aggressive dog needs to just not do it! Someone who is calm and fairly proficient at reading dog body language and signals would have a much better chance of touching the dog in a non threatening manner, not getting bit and helping the dog relax.

[Guest Anonymous]

OKay, not I'm confused!!! "get them to pet under the chest" - "get them NOT to pet under the chest" what do I do?! I guess aggression is something that's a very touchy subject (since it has only been explored so far...), and that it's hard to really determen, since most aggressive dogs are different. Which is why I posted as much info I thought necisarry to understand her type of aggression, and how it's been dealt with in the past.
I'm glad there's a discussion going on about it, good to see, but it's making me a little confused!! :-?