Lab vs. Border Collie

[yellowlabsrule]

I'm going to get a puppy and I've narrowed it down to two breeds. The border collie and the lab. I have a lab now and I really like her, but I want to get a dog of my own. I have been reading a lot about both, but I am having a tough choice deciding. I want to do agility, obedience, show, and MAYBE breed. That's some of the reasons the border collie appeals to me, but I know that if you don't have a job for them they go nuts. I LOVE the lab, but they aren't that obedient, a lot more show competition, and kinda slow. Could I get some help please? Maybe someone has have both those breeds and could give me some advice? Thanks! :D Also, I live on a farm so we have LOTS of room to run around. [/b][/u]

[Guest Anonymous]

yellowlabsrule napisał(a):

I LOVE the lab, but they aren't that obedient, a lot more show competition, and kinda slow. Could I get some help please? Maybe someone has have both those breeds and could give me some advice? Thanks! :D Also, I live on a farm so we have LOTS of room to run around.

Okay I will take this... but first note that I like BC's. I feel you have to have alot of qualities to take on this breed. Now about the Labrador...
Labs are what you make them...and what they are from (genetics)..Obedience they love to please their owners but you must start early. Not 1 hr everyday because they get bored as does any dog but maybe 5-10 mins (as pups) They too require alot of room and have alot of energy. By the time my lab was 4 months he would sit, sit-stay, lay, come, howdy, bed, kenneling up, heel, and was tracking a 5-10 minute old track. Slow (I wish someone would tell mine that sometimes!) Labs are very versitile...They do many things...SAR, hunt, obedience, service dogs, narcotics, track, show, field trials, (okay Hobbit and bk they do not herd! :lol: )! If you want a lab to do field trials and hunt then you look for that in his background.... If you want one for strictly show then you look for that.... it works the same with BC's... I feel that a dog is what you make them.... You look at pups and test personalities and then give it everything you have and they give their all...

[bk_blue]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

(okay Hobbit and bk they do not herd! :lol: )

That's not necessarily a BAD thing!! :wink:

BK (who is a BC/heeler mix) used to herd people, we would all be in the lounge and if someone left he would follow them and try to get them back to the lounge by taking their hand in his mouth (gently) and pulling them, or heel nipping, or nudging. It was cute then annoying, he doesn't do it anymore though thankfully. :)

Yellowlabs: Border Collies are awesome dogs but workaholics, as long as you have stuff for them to do they will be reasonably sane. :wink: Talk to the good breeders in your area and visit them, talk to the breed clubs etc etc, the more you find out the more certain you'll be about what dog is right for you. Of course you might find one that makes you melt, and that will be it. :D

[yellowlabsrule]

[quote] Jacsmom wrote:
(okay Hobbit and bk they do not herd! ) [quote]

Hey, the lab I have now herds (some! :lol: ) at least she thinks she can, and sometime she's a big help! :D

[yellowlabsrule]

sorry, I don't know how to do quotes!

[yellowlabsrule]

What I meant about labs being slow is their not the fastest in agility. Also, how long does the border collie act like a puppy? (I sort-of get that their never a puppy in the sense of their acting like a workoholic!) I ask that because our lab had a puppy mentality for about 3 years! (she still has it some and she's 8! :)

[Hobbit]

Yellow -- please don't take this like I'm being hateful, because I am not.

BUT: Border Collies were bred (created) for generations as livestock herding dogs (more like sheep dogs). They were not bred as a *SHOW* dog, they were not bred as a *SPORTS* dog, they were bred as a *HERDING* dog meant for HERDING LIVESTOCK.

When AKC (the evil empire) and the show people saw an opportunity to cash in on a very popular breed, they did so by recognizing them as a breed. This is going to be and already has been, the demise of the working Border Collie. You can already see a big difference in the way the *show* Border Collies look verses the *working* Border Collie.

Depending on the bloodline/breeding the Border Collie can be hyper, some that are well breed are not.

Please do not contribute to the demise of the working Border Collie and purchase one from strong herding lines. PLEASE search for one that has been bred for many generations for *show*, as the herding instinct may have already been bred out.

If people as you (no offense meant) continue to purchase good herding bred BC's and breed them specifically for conformation and sports --- you are breeding the natural herding ability and desire to work out of these dogs.

I, for one, depend on herding bred dogs to help on the ranch. I am not against anyone owning a Border Collie, if they plan on using it for what it is meant to be......A HERDING DOG.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hobbit, I sure wish you could explain that to my husband. He wanted a BC before we got the Shibas and he plans on getting on after the Shibas cross the Rainbow Bridge. I don't think he understands what these dogs need to be kept happy. He thinks a little horseplay, walks, and lovin' will be enough for this herding breed.

[Hobbit]

gigishiba napisał(a):

Hobbit, I sure wish you could explain that to my husband. He wanted a BC before we got the Shibas and he plans on getting on after the Shibas cross the Rainbow Bridge. I don't think he understands what these dogs need to be kept happy. He thinks a little horseplay, walks, and lovin' will be enough for this herding breed.

Some BC's are stronger herding bred than others. Ask yourself why so many (that's so VERY many) end up at the pound/shelters/rescue? It's because someone thought they were pretty or wanted a pet and didn't understand the full scope of a BC and how they think. EVERYTHING to them is potentially something to herd (those that are bred this way). They can NOT be kept for extended periods of time in a crate, small kennel or confined area --- they will go crazy. I've heard this so many times, "I have a big back yard" --- this is simply not enough. In town, the pedestrian traffic and vehicular traffic will cause this BC to become a barker and a fence runner. He will start digging or climbing the fence in an effort to herd the big shiney sheep (cars), bicycles, pedestrians...what ever moves. The owner gets sick and tired of this.....the BC ends up in rescue.

[Guest Anonymous]

Interesting points Hobbit. I will have to bring those up to my hubby someday.....when the time is right.

[Guest Anonymous]

yellowlabsrule napisał(a):

I want to do agility, obedience, show, and MAYBE breed. That's some of the reasons the border collie appeals to me, but I know that if you don't have a job for them they go nuts.

Boy, those are two very different breeds to be considering! I really can't offer you an opinion but, I would like to tell you a bit about Border Collies and agility. Lots of folks think (and I'm not saying that you're one of them!) that to succeed in agility, you need to run a BC. What they fail to take into consideration is that running a BC is VERY demanding of a handler. BC's are very in tune to their handlers and will respond to every little "twitch" they make. It takes a very good agility handler who can maintain proper body control throughout a run to run a BC well. At every agility trial you'll see "disaster" runs with a very fast BCs....a BC who really was just following it's handler's body language but, the handler really didn't mean to send those "signals".

I do a pretty good job with my Dobes but, I don't have the total body control that it would take to run a BC well.

[Guest Anonymous]

Welcome Nancy!! I have seen this before where the BC is out running the handler and the handler makes just an inch move wrong and the BC goes... :D I would think these dogs gave handlers a run for their money!!!

Labs act and mainly are pups until up to 2 yrs of age... Every dog is going to have a "puppy" moment.... It is good for their soul and ours!! No I would not say that an English style Lab is good at agility but American(Taller and leaner) would be more suitable.. Mine (Jac) would not be an agility champ..(weighing in at 95lbs now at 10 months!!) and it is not good for them until growth plates are done..

Do I think we need more Lab breeders in the world?? Or BC breeders? If you are willing to do it correctly..Study, Microchip pups, interview homes, xray parents, genetic research, title parents or at least work them and love them, be willing to take back EVERY pup you have if the need arises, spay neuter contracts or limited registration, Make the breed better, the list is long... At my feet now lays a 10 month old Yellow male who has seizures and has since 4 months old... I do not know what his hips are going to look like, his eyes, he could have possible liver problems.... No we do not need any breeder who are going to go at breeding half way or make a breed worse...be it BC's or Lab or any breed. When you do something to it right... Do it because you love the breed.. I am not flaming or being rude..... I have volunteered at shelters seen many dogs left because they are to hyper or they do not listen and I have seen this Lab have seizures and it is sick... :-?

[ShadyLady]

yellow labs have you considered an older rescue dog at least you'll know what your getting temperment build ect and you can start right away .Sure you may not get the pedigree thing for showing and as for the breeding maybe it would be better to not get into this at this stage until you know more about your breed (which ever one you choose) I do herding with my dogs and I know that my first koolie wasnt an ideal specimen because I lacked experience with the breed I was also new to herding trials with him so we made quite a few mistakes and learnt a lot as we went along (Id done herding but not trialling) so give it some serious thought And what a great feeling you'd get also from saving a dog

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry if I was rude in my previous post yellowlabs as it was not intended to be...It was intended to make a point or rather for you to think before you leap... I think koolie's idea is a great one!! :D As the first dog always teaches us more than we could ever teach them!! :lol: :lol:

[yellowlabsrule]

Jacsmom, you weren't rude at all! I thank you for your input, but I do already have a lab so it isn't a first dog. I have considered a shelter dog, and if I could get two more dogs I'd get one. But, I'm really a show conformation person, that's why I decided to get an AKC registered dog. Hobbit, I don't agree about the AKC being an evil empire. I'm pretty sure that I've decided on a lab after I saw a old english sheepdog get 4th at agility on tv! It's not just speed, but accuracy. Jacsmom, I won't take the breeding thing lightly, I love the breed and only wan't to improve it and not harm it. That's why we spayed the lab we have now (Winnie!) because she had bad hips :cry: . My dream is to see a lab win westminster!

[Guest Anonymous]

Let me see if I can explain to you Hobbit's point:
When you have a working breed that you use to do a job, as Hobbit does...and people come in and say "I think this would be a cool dog to use to show." So they take this dog and several others and breed. They give no thought to genetics. It loses majority of its working ability, it's original body style that it had that helped it to work and probably increased problems in that breed. All of this to acquire an AKC recoginized breed to show...... This is why they are considered an evil empire to alot of working dog breeders and owners not just Hobbit... You will run across many. When you think about it, it is a true why do all of that to become recognized? Why could it not be the way it should be and be shown? That is Hobbit's point. :wink:

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom -- you are a saint. Thanks for the post. I could only beat my head against the wall and was just too tired to respond, because it would have come across as a F L A M I N G post. Just thinking about ALL my and other breeders' years of genetic study, applying that to producing better herding offspring than the parents, heartbreaking loss, protecting our breed from the greedy hands of AKC --- all to have it destroyed because someone wants a *conformation* dog......only a conformation dog --- like pulling hens teeth and beating my head against the wall is much easier than trying to explain why the herding community is so concerned (and protective).

Thanks again for the post......

[bk_blue]

Hobbit, there is an interesting debate about grooming/conformation/working ACDs on ACD-L (do you subscribe to it?). I have to laugh when some of the more fussy show people use hair dryers and such on their big, tough cattle dogs. :roll: And I agree with you that show dogs are, in a way, destroying the original purpose of these dogs (be it ACDs, BCs, Kelpies etc). They are still being used for their original purpose too. It shouldn't matter what these dog look like (though I spose helps at shows to be clean and polished) as long as they can work.

[Guest Anonymous]

Maybe it would help to post some pics of conformation dogs and working/trial dogs of these breeds (BC, Lab)! :wink:

[Hobbit]

WORKING BORDER COLLIE:





SHOW BORDER COLLIE:

[Hobbit]

No Lassie dog, just a show bred Border Collie (AKC registered). He is a sweet boy, another lady owns him.

The working Border Collie is ABCA (American Border Collie Association) registered. We used to own him. He is now working on a 7000 head sheep ranch in south Texas -- and is a very happy boy. He was a rescue. The man that was giving him up said, "I just can't beat him enough to make him stop herding my livestock". He got the dog as a "PET" for the family, because he thought he was *PRETTY*. YEP, my big soap box continues on that subject.

[Hobbit]

K napisał(a):

What sort of dog was Lassie then :-?

She was just a regular "Collie", but K....if you want to call her a Border Collie.......you caaaaaan. :fadein:

[Guest Anonymous]

Ouch!!! :o

Okay not as much difference with Labs but here is the pics anyway...

Field Trial Lab


Show Lab

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay *mutter bang clang smash* K it is fixed now!! :wink:

[Smooshie]

It seems that no working breed goes unscathed when being bred for the conformation show ring as opposed to being bred for their original purpose. In the U.S. Boxers (although classed as a working breed) are very rarely used for their original purpose (police dog,tracking,herding) and instead have become a favorite house pet and show breed.
Whereas In Europe the working Boxer is still very much alive and is highly valued as a police,schutzhund and service dog,......although if you put them side by side they hardly look like the same breed...

on the left is an American bred show boxer....on the right a German working Boxer :








http://www.euro-boxer.com/galleries/working_boxer.html