Pitted against each other?

[Gordonmom]

PS-- it has never been shown that brain tumors can be inherited, so you can't breed out brain tumor genes.

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Question::: Do you believe you could take two even tempered dogs non-agressive (tested to the extreme)... but by nature are suppose to be agressive... And breed the agression out of the breed "without" outcrossing to another breed?

My question is would this "mean" gene at some point be "lost" or bred out of the breed itself?

Well, if by me using the quote box, makes me computer ILLITERATE, than I guess I am. Yes, that was sarcasm that I will not appologize for.

Jacsmom: an even tempered dog can CARRY an aggressive gene (could be hidden), and YES it can be bred out. Homozygous genes breed true, heterzygous genes do not. Recessive genes, incomplete dominance, epistatic genes, etc... this all affects the out come of a breeding.

Gordonsmom -- you have your opinion, please do the research; I will not get into a p+ssing match or scratch match with you over this.

Jacsmom: you can believe me or not, I don't care. I study and apply genetics for a living.

Since there are several possible gene pairs that could occur during the pairing process ---- this could be possible. This is why "selective" breeding is important. A person can breed two non-aggressive dogs and have a pup in the litter that shows aggression. If you are breeding for non-aggressive dogs, then this pup should be put down, neutered or spayed. Bottom line, it should not be bred.

If a person elects to inbreed, eventually the genes will be "fixed" for a specific phenotype. If the gene is homozygous, it can be fixed genotypically, if it is heterozygous, then it will never breed true.

And YES, brain tumors (epilepsy, heart defects, etc...) CAN be bred OUT. If both parents are carriers or affected, then they should not be bred, period. If one is a carrier, and is bred to one that is not, then a portion of the pups will be affected, some will not.

Careful, selective breeding is a must in any breeding program, not just when genetic defects are involved.

Some breeds were "created" to be aggressive; yes, it would be possible to produce a non-aggressive dog, but it would take years to "clean" up the breed. And since there would be more than one person doing the breeding, this possibly would never happen because of all the variables that could and will happen (keeping a pup because it's cute and ignoring it's behaviour -- breeding it later).

[Horsefeathers!]

Nooooooooooo, Hobbit, I think you misunderstood her comment on the computer literacy thing. Either that, or I am misunderstanding it.

I took that comment to mean that she doesn't know how to post with the quote box and so kinda made a funny about herself when she said that someday she would add "computer literate" to her credentials. At least, that is the way I took it. I did not read an attempt to slam you at all and don't think she was calling you computer illiterate.

:agrue:

[Horsefeathers!]

Hobbit napisał(a):

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Question::: Do you believe you could take two even tempered dogs non-agressive (tested to the extreme)... but by nature are suppose to be agressive... And breed the agression out of the breed "without" outcrossing to another breed?

My question is would this "mean" gene at some point be "lost" or bred out of the breed itself?

Jacsmom: you can believe me or not, I don't care. I study and apply genetics for a living.

Whoa.... I don't think she was questioning your credentials. I believe she was asking a valid question.

Hard day at the office? Intended humorously, of course. You seem a bit on edge tonight.
:2gunfire:

[Guest roo]

Horsefeathers! napisał(a):

Nooooooooooo, Hobbit, I think you misunderstood her comment on the computer literacy thing. Either that, or I am misunderstanding it.

I took that comment to mean that she doesn't know how to post with the quote box and so kinda made a funny about herself when she said that someday she would add "computer literate" to her credentials. At least, that is the way I took it. I did not read an attempt to slam you at all and don't think she was calling you computer illiterate.

:agrue:

Horsefeathers i agree with the above, thats the way i read the post
too.
Roo

[Gordonmom]

Roo and Horsefeathers, you are correct. :D

I am new to this computer thing :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Hobbit I have no doubt on anything you are saying.. I believe that training though brings that agression to a full extent.. Kind of like alcoholism in a person instead of going to AA it would be like taking them to an open bar..

Question #2: Brindling is a mutation of a b (loci ? ) is that something that occurs just out of the blue or is it nessessary to spay/neuter your bitch or dog? Parents black and chocolate. (Labs of course) Yellow pup.
I know this is totally of the agression subject but it is on the genetics subject??!! :wink: :B-fly:

[Hobbit]

Oh boy....I appologize. I didn't realize my growl & snap. There's no excuse for rudness --- and thank you for bringing that to my attention. Just briefly -- I have a Kelpie pup that was whelped April 25. EVERYTHING that I've ever wanted, attitude, natural instinct, temperment, he minds, he started working the roosters at 8wks old (they bored him, too easy), then moved him to the gentle (dog broke) goats and he is doing excellent. He is the LAST of this bloodline and there will be no more. If something happens to him, then the bloodline and genetics are lost. THEN .... disaster: first -- he was bitten by a Cooperhead snake -2x's (at the same time), when he was 9 wks old, everything went well, after 13 hours of round the clock watching him (after medication and more medication), he pulled out of it. A freak accident when he was 17 wks old -- he broke his leg in TWO places > shoulder and radius. Okay, vet pinned the shoulder, but decided not to cast the radius because the ulna would hold it in place and because the sutures would be aggravated by any type of cast. THEN --- the leg started taking a "twist" -- well sh+t, x-rays show the growth plate prematurally closed on the ulna. So, this means the ulna has stopped growing, but the radius has not --- yeah....banana shape going on here. So, we're waiting to seen an Orthopedic Surgeon (at the tune of an access of $2500.00, more than willing to pay this to make him okay) > several options: rebreak the radius and break the ulna. Take a portion of bone from the ulna then plate it apart so it can grow to catch up with the radius. OR just break the ulna and do the above. OR there could be nothing that can be done and he's screwed. Oh...I'm not thru here..... Pin is out, both breaks are healed. He's in the day pen (small pen so he can louge at his convenienve and get some exercise), one week ago tomorrow --- while letting him out of the pen, and he NORMALLY stands there, we shut the gate and snap a lead on him and we go to the house (trying to limit his exercise) ....well.....this time, he bolts because he has just got to check on "his" goats. On his way (about 20 foot) he cuts the corner too sharp and hangs the SAME shoulder on the corner of the fence and RIPS/PEELS HIS SKIN FROM BETWEEN THE SHOULDERS STRAIGHT DOWN TO ALMOST THE MIDDLE OF HIS BELLY. Did this slow him down? NOT EVEN. Of course, it can't be surtured because it's right in the "pull" area. So, for a week he's had this gapping hole, oozing mess --- he doesn't mind, he is so pain tolerant it's unreal. It is healing very nicely ---- HE IS ON A SUICIDE MISSION and it's making me crazy. I worry about him constantly, and he is just so happy go lucky --- NOTHING bothers him. He'd walk into a line of gun fire, an explosion, he is fearless.

Sorry for the long OFF THE TOPIC post.......rudness is no excuse, forgive me unintentional vent at some nondeserving folks.

Alrighty, I will answer your question, Jacsmom in another post that just answers your question.....thanks for listening and forgiving my rudness.

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow sounds like Jac....Only worse... :o I am buying a padded room!!! :shocked!: Good dog Great dog... Seizures, broke leg, Now he has this thing on his leg (cyst possibly??) I am thinking WHAT NEXT!! Going to the vet next week!!! But on a plus went tracking Sunday with him.... extent time and length of track (time 15 mins track approx 100yds) He did it!!! It is truly amazing!! He is even backtracking from an older scent say 2 hrs to the fresher say 15 mins scent to find what he is looking for!!! And bragging on myself... I am learning to read his body language to tell what is the older and newer scents... :smilecolros:

[Guest Anonymous]

That is okay Jac is a Labrador RETRIEVER and the only ball he will even touch is a soccer ball...... :D

[deepseasnake]

Oh boy....I appologize. I didn't realize my growl & snap. There's no excuse for rudness ---

hobbit, your an ACD your bred to growl and snap! its what we expect :D

That is CRAP I totally feel for you, that dog has got to be driving you nuts on the inside, just believe and we'll believe with you and then the dog will realize when he gets that "feeling" its time to stop
keep us informed I really want to know how he does.

well I had a Gene question but cant remember it know after reading about your pup, it'll come back to me

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='deepseasnake']

Oh boy....I appologize. I didn't realize my growl & snap. There's no excuse for rudness ---

hobbit, your an ACD your bred to growl and snap! its what we expect :D


More like herd us!! :flasingsmile:

[deepseasnake]

OH I REMEMBER NOW

Hobbit,
you were talking about how after line breeding you can "secure" a trait into a dog type, or at least thats what I thought I read.

Is that directly related to why you say not to assert Alphaness and dominance over herding breeds? Are they geneticaly "built" to not be conquerd, there for they can herd rowdy and much bigger animals?

[Guest Anonymous]

K napisał(a):

HEY! How come you all have dogs that can "do stuff" :-? HUH?

Mine flat out refuse to even "fetch"...must be me..because none of them will do it.. :(

I hear ya, K. Mine wont either. They'll chase a ball, but retrieve? NO WAY. Although Kenzo would rather chase rocks.... :roll:

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Jacsmom']Hobbit I have no doubt on anything you are saying.. I believe that training though brings that agression to a full extent.. YES, agree, .... "the environment pulling the trigger".

Kind of like alcoholism in a person instead of going to AA it would be like taking them to an open bar.. YES, exactly....or like taking a "game" bred dog to a dog-fight or a strong herding dog to the sheep pen.

Question #2: Brindling is a mutation of a b (loci ? ) is that something that occurs just out of the blue or is it nessessary to spay/neuter your bitch or dog? NO, see below. It is unlikely that this coloration can be passed on (from the brindle pup, therefore; no need to spay or neuter) But genetics are not absolute and can humble us by producing things not expected. Parents black and chocolate. (Labs of course) Yellow pup.

I know this is totally of the agression subject but it is on the genetics subject??!! :wink: :B-fly:


The brindling is rare and occurs, so it is thought, several ways:
first: during the division into daughter cells, one daughter cell receives an extra chromosome, because one of the chromosomes fails to separate.

Second theory is that during the time the daughter cell reconstitutes, one of the chromosomes is left behind. The one left behind would have to be the dominant allele, otherwise the dog would be of a normal color.

Thirdly, both sire and dam could be carriers of a mutated allele.


Just a bit of trivia --- Golden Retrievers are actually genetically BLACK.

AND --- I think I now understand what Gordonmom's was trying to make me understand --- after a few days of thinking about this (this is what stress will do to you --- makes you not think clearly): okay, her statement concerning that EVERYTHING is not dictated by genetics (not an actual quote since I don't have it directly in front of me...but you know what I mean) --- YES, I finally understand what she was saying. YES, you are correct in one sense, genetics has nothing to do with accidents, chemical poisonings, high fevers, etc... MY thinking was that EVERYONE would automatically eliminate the obvious/fever, viruses, bacteria's etc...that would have nothing to do with genetics. Understand? Barred ANY outside environmental meddling -- genetics does dictate the outcome. NOW, add all the other OUTSIDE things that can happen >> YES, the outcome could be different.

[Hobbit]

deepseasnake napisał(a):

OH I REMEMBER NOW

Hobbit,
you were talking about how after line breeding you can "secure" a trait into a dog type, or at least thats what I thought I read.

Is that directly related to why you say not to assert Alphaness and dominance over herding breeds? Are they geneticaly "built" to not be conquerd, there for they can herd rowdy and much bigger animals?

Deep, homozygous (alike) genes will breed true and the phenotype and genotype can be "fixed" (a certain trait that can't be changed unless bred to a heterozygote (different). Heterozygous genes will not breed true.

No, not directly related, if i'm understanding your post. In a real working (for a living) dog, you don't want one that constantly looks to you for direction (like a sports/performance dog) because sometimes you may not be in sight and the dog needs to make a decision on his own.

I'm not saying to let the dog run over you, but a herding dog needs to be of a dominant personality and have confidence. This is because they must be dominant and full of confidence (cocky, if you will) while working stock. They must make this 2400 pound bull believe that they can and will rip him apart if he doesn't do what he says. The dog must have the courage to nip a stubbord sheep or cow to get it moving. On the other hand, he must also be gentle enough to move baby lambs without hurting them. Some dogs can do this, some can not.

No. Genetically they are not built to be conquered, just dominant in nature, but able to take commands and direction. Some are way better than others at this. You must have a balance of dominance, but not so much that they are not controllable.

[deepseasnake]

makes perfact sense, thanks :D

[deepseasnake]

OH did you get my PMs? Hobbit

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Wow sounds like Jac....Only worse... :o I am buying a padded room!!! :shocked!: Good dog Great dog... Seizures, broke leg, Now he has this thing on his leg (cyst possibly??) I am thinking WHAT NEXT!! Going to the vet next week!!! But on a plus went tracking Sunday with him.... extent time and length of track (time 15 mins track approx 100yds) He did it!!! It is truly amazing!! He is even backtracking from an older scent say 2 hrs to the fresher say 15 mins scent to find what he is looking for!!! And bragging on myself... I am learning to read his body language to tell what is the older and newer scents... :smilecolros:

I have an industrial roll of bubble wrap!! I think he truly enjoys seeing us spaz out ---- he has now decided that the shortest distance between two points is from the highest point in the room!! Instead of walking around the sofa, he'll jump onto the back and JUMP as far OUT as he can (of course I'm running to catch him, but he is so fast and quick, there is no way). Even though he knows, OFF and NO --- these are not even in his vocabulary when he does this. He takes GREAT delight in doing this. Kelpies are notorious for their climbing like monkeys. He'll climb and just look at us with this silly grin! Oh....he's going to be the death of me. He isn't the only one with a sense of humor. Miss Kitty is a terrorist. You don't EVEN walk in the barn without making sure where she is. She will climb onto the very top of the hay stack and hide. As you are walking by, she finds GREAT delight in pouncing on you like a cat. Scares (and knocks) the absolute breath out of you. Just bragging that I haven't LOST my sense of humor or patience with these little angels......... :o

Isn't it wonderful when all things seem to come together!? Girl, go on and brag on yourself -- that is wonderful!

[Guest Anonymous]

I love to my dogs...They are my sanity!!! Yeah really they are!! :lol: :lol:
I think I get as excited to go "seek' as Jac does anymore... I LOVE to watch him "work"!! Sense of humor everytime Jac "thinks" i am on the computer to long he comes and pushes in the keyboard, sits down, and barks at me... If I pull the keyboard back out we go through the same process all over until I "do" what he sees fit!!! :roll: He has learned to lift his leg now but tends to pee allllll over his front leg. :o Humor yes I have it...Sanity yes my dogs are my sanity in this world!!

[Guest Anonymous]

Golden retrievers Black???? Is Black not a dominate color??

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Golden retrievers Black???? Is Black not a dominate color??

Goldens are genetically, (not phenotypically) black. They only look golden yellow due to their e genes restricting the development of black pigment. They're of the same genetic makeup as the "yellow" Aussies (Australian Shepherd). Goldens are (BB ee).

Sometimes a black spot, streak, splash will occur on a Golden. This means there was a mutation in a skin cell in which (ee) became (Ee). This allowed the black pigment to form in cells descended from that one. The resulting mis-marked Golden does not produce puppies with black spots because the mutation occurred only in the skin, not the reproductive organs. Just like the brindling or Mosiac coloration in the Lab. Unfortunately, owners if they don't know anything about genetics, would be inclined to think another dog bred their female and put down a perfectly good pup just because he is mis-marked, at no fault of his own. If the pup came from champion parents, there is no need to destroy him or even neuter him, because the coloration will not be passed on to the next litter. The genetics are still there with the great possibility that his offspring could be champions.

Yes, black is dominant, normally. When the cell mutates, it is more dominant than yellow, but less dominant than black, but it "mutates" the color ---- if that makes better sense.

[Guest Anonymous]

Gotcha! On the brindling thing too!! I am so proud of myself! See if this is right... Brindling is a mutation.. Occuring in a specific dog it is that dogs chromosomes. This is not passed on to pups because each pup in a litter forms its own DNA, chromosomes, and etc... therefore the genetic (as far as color) structure of the brindled dog would not interfere with the pups??!!

Correct or no?!

[Hobbit]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Gotcha! On the brindling thing too!! I am so proud of myself! See if this is right... Brindling is a mutation.. Occuring in a specific dog it is that dogs chromosomes. This is not passed on to pups because each pup in a litter forms its own DNA, chromosomes, and etc... therefore the genetic (as far as color) structure of the brindled dog would not interfere with the pups??!!

Correct or no?!

Correct, unless one of the pups has a mutation of the cell (rare, but could happen).

Not really it's own DNA -- inherited DNA: The pup gets 78 chromosomes; 39 from it's mom and 39 from it's dad. Each chromosome has a partner (inherited from the other parent); 78 chromosomes that form 39 pairs.

Mutations occur when there is an alteration of the DNA (the nucleotide sequence that code for a specific protein).

Mutations can be cause by a very wide variety of things --- chemicals (mostly), terratogens, mutatgens, carcinogens --- these are all chemical caused (unless I'm forgetting something).

OR...sometimes one partner is forgotten and this also causes mutations. Sometimes, we just don't know what happens, it just does >> but it still all relates to genetics.

[Guest Anonymous]

You just had to jump of the hay bale and throw that at me!!! :D