Cruelty

[Guest Anonymous]

Although this is not about dogs if you are an animal lover you will feel the same way and sign this petition to stop animal cruelty.

http://primates.rspca.org.uk/

[avaloniaboerboele]

The fact is - all cruelty on earth stems from humans - what shall we do with them?

[Guest Anonymous]

That is HORRIBLE!!!! i love monkeys and hate to hear things like that!![/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

I wish there was something we could do...

There is...sign

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Axel']Although this is not about dogs if you are an animal lover you will feel the same way and sign this petition to stop animal cruelty.

http://primates.rspca.org.uk/

Are you aware that many of the results of research on animals helps animals? All the dog and cat vaccines for example were developed through animal research.
While I am against 'frivolous' research (testing cosmetics on animals for example) I have to say in all practicality I am in favor of developing new medical techniques and medicines for use in all species including us humans. Wouldn't you love to know why some monkeys infected with HIV never get AIDs? wouldn't you love to be able to apply that to infected humans so they could have a real life?
Sorry I see to many benefits to doing research to say - stop it all.

[Guest Anonymous]

I already know why the monkeys didn't get AIDs, because they were not the ones who could not help but have sex with how many people? Thats just the way I see it. I see it as monkeys did not go around having all the sex they could handle, and then for us humans to inject HIV into something inconent like that I personally feel like God would not let the monkeys get it.

[GizmoRedNosePit]

I do understand that animals help themselves with the research as said in previouse posts....BUT that it so small for a monkey cage, I dunno, I am so confused in things like that, it is good but bad.....

[Louis]

My main objection to the use of animals in experimentation of all kinds is the conditions under which they are frequently kept. I believe that the environments are all too often completely inadequate. The sheer volume of animals retained in research facilities means that stimuluating, complex housing is frequently too difficult to maintain and clean to be economically viable. I have spent a short time in a large lab that used a variety of animals because I needed some of their facilities years ago- so I know this and I speak from experience. I love rats as I used to keep them as pets- I know just how intelligent they are and how they love to explore- I found it quite disturbing to know this and to watch them confined to small, rectangular plastic tubs throughout their lives, sometimes with only an empty toilet roll to play with and sometimes with nothing at all. They were also not infrequently kept alone. I would like to see all animals used in research kept with full regard given to their needs and natures. I cannot imagine how you could keep monkeys and dogs fully stimulated without employing full-time 'playmates'. There is the problem- the cost. But I still maintain that something can and must be done.

Before I spent time in this lab I was rabidly anti-animal experiments and it was a real eye opener, meeting those who looked after the animals and who were actually very nice and caring. It sounds strange if you haven't been there but they were!! It is not something I could do, but they work very hard and have to monitor the conditions of many animals. This lab was well run and sickening animals were always detected early, and almost always given POSITIVE treatment from a qualified vet- not euthanised because this was less trouble. There is no excuse for the treatment that the monkeys on this website received.

I personally still favour alternative forms of research strongly as I believe this is better for us as well as for the animals. The one story that really haunts me is that if penicillin had been tested on guinea pigs way back when, we most likely would not have it now because it is lethal to them! There is no guarantee that what works in a tiny, furry rodent will act in exactly the same way on a human being. I often think of that great contradiction in animal experimentation that I saw stated on a welfare site-

If you ask a researcher why they test on animals they may say;
Because they are like us
If you ask why it is ok to test on animals they may say;
Because they are not like us

This is not a clearcut issue and it will never have a simple answer. If you think it is all black and white, wrong and right, I have to say you are wrong. The more you learn and the more you experience, the more you come to see that it is more shades of grey.

Thats my opinion at any rate!!!

[sixjollydogs]

:( One of the biggest lies of those who use animals for experiments is that it is doing good for the vast majority. Yes, there may be some that can be done no other way...but a great number are useless, cruel and unneeded...for example the Draze tests on rabbits.

Look at all the drugs that are recalled and they were tested on animals. Humans and animals do not share the same genetics and so many of the tests do not translate. Aspirin is an example. If you give a cat an aspirin...you will kill it...but it is safe in humans.

[science_doc]

I have posted as a guest on the topic of animal research before and I would love to debate the issue for as long as necessary to try and ease your minds that the vast mojority of animal research is done by caring individuals who really are working to help you and your family. I think that Louis captured the essence of this issue best there is no easy solution. I do research using animals and every animal sacrifice is difficult for me. I wish there were another way, but there isn't. And the other comments about how their living situation is not the best it could be is also probably true, but we all want drugs and treatments we can afford so there lies the real problem. I know that you all want the best treaments for your human and canine family members the only way this can be achieved is by research.

The Aids comments I cannot let go without a direct response. Many species of monkey are far more promiscuous than any human you have ever met. Often they will have sex with every member of their group regardless of gender or age just to increase their rank in the group. You cannot put morals on wild animals, they are not capable of those choices. They live to gain as much as possible and spread their genes regardless of the cost or consequence. Monkeys do in fact get aids, but to them it is more like the common cold. Unfortunately for humans since were are closely related genetically, but not the same, this simple virus is able to get into our immune systems and destroy our defenses. The real burning question not too long ago was why some people were repeatedly exposed to Aids and did not become infected with the virus. The answer was slight genetic modifications in a protein found on the surface of one type of white blood cell. How do we know about these cells and receptors - animal research.

[Louis]

Regarding promiscuous monkeys- I can only say you ain't seen nothing until you have seen footage of BONOBOS :o . I would think these are the species that Science_doc refers to and they live in very peaceful society, but they are very sexually charged!! Sorry to chip in on a slightly off note, but when I studied Evolutionary psychology we did quite a lot comparing and contrasting the societies of the common chimp sand the Bonobo- it was fascinating.

Science doc is right, the vast majority of the technicians involved with these animals are good and conscientious and caring individuals. I always found this idea laughable myself- until I was working among them. But some publicity a couple of years ago has really tarnished their image.. did you know about the 'It's a dog's life' programme that was screened here Science_doc? It showed footage of staff tormenting and teasing, even punching Beagle puppies in the lab. I believe there was an outcry because the staff were not dismissed immediately by their employers, Huntingdon Life Sciences. Don't remember for sure.. Sorry Beagle88

[science_doc]

I did not see the footage your talking about Louis, sorry, I guess I really can't speak about the laws in Europe since I have only worked here in the USA. I can't deny that there have been some VERY bad people out there in the animal research community, but then there are some very bad people in the dog breeding community, etc. but not all breeders are bad. I wish that I could show you all the caring people I have known. I myself have witnessed people call an anonymous tip line here where I work to turn in a lab that was doing bad things out of ignorance. The practice was then stopped. We all police ourselves as well as being randomly checked by the government.

I think that anyone who is cruel to animals, technician or not should be punished with REAL JAIL TIME not a fine or a slap on the wrist. This goes for everyone out there who inteacts with animals.

I guess I should also appolgize to Beagle88, I have always enjoyed your posts, sorry if I offend I just feel really strongly about the posititves of animal research
:oops:

[Louis]

No, you are 100% correct, again!
The footage itself caused a bit of a storm in the UK. I know the technicians discussed it themselves. The general result in public was a total misconception about the monitoring of animal research. I think, and I know some of the technicians also thought, that those lab assistants responsible should have been dismissed immediately and prosecuted. That this did not happen is tragic. It really did damage perception of those that work with these animals and that is so sad when they are almost 100% genuine people!