Need advice for random aggression

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm having a dilemma that I'm hoping someone can help with. We seem to have several folks here who are knowledgeable in canine behavior and I sure would love some input.

I have a "Pit Bull"/Boxer mix (for all intents and purposes, a mutt). We've had her since she was five weeks old and she has been raised in a loving environment with no abuse from us. However, as a puppy, she was, unknown to us at the time, used as bait for some fighting Pit Bulls. Apparently, according to eye witnesses, some teens came around with their dogs and tied her up with a rope and drug her for "bait." She was in our yard where we thought she was perfectly safe. It never occurred to me to worry about such things.

As she grew, we fenced in our yard to keep out unwanted pests (neighborhood kids and other dogs) and to keep our dogs in. However, for the three years we've had her, neighborhood kids AND some of the parents of these little $%^@! have made a game of coming to the fence and agitating my dogs. They jump at them and throw at them just to make them bark and charge the fence. Repeated attempts to discourage this (calling the authorities, running out of the house screaming bloody hell, etc.) have never worked. Anyway, that's beside the point of what I need to know.

Penny (the dog I'm having problems with) did bite a boy a year or so ago when he was climbing our fence. This is the primary kid who torments her, so I guess it was coming. Anyway, now we have, according to the law, a "vicious dog" on record. If she ever bites anyone else, even if they are inside my house with a gun to my head, I will be held responsible.

Here's the thing now... Penny is becoming increasingly "unstable." She is just plain getting unpredictable. Most of the time, she is the sweetest, most loving dog anyone could ask for. However, once in a while she "clicks" and attacks my Lab. I have 7 other dogs beside her, some being as small as 4lbs, and what she could do to one of them is unthinkable if she chose to. So far, her "attacks" have been more bluffing and posing than actually damaging and she usually ONLY attacks the Lab. Until the other day. She did some damage. She bit into his face to the very bone during one of her "attacks." I do not get this behavior. My Lab has raised her (so to speak) since she was five weeks old. 99% of the time, they are inseparable and she adores him. It's just those times she "clicks." They used to share a house together. Now sometimes he can share it and other times she won't let him near it. When we let them into the house (I don't believe in keeping them solely outside, though that is where they spend most of their time), if she is asleep on the floor and someone accidentally bumps her, she comes up snarling and snapping as if she's a loaded spring. As if she doesn't really relax when she's asleep, but is instead paranoid (for lack of a better word). The attack the other day was when he tried to drink water the same time she was... something they typically do all the time. I don't get these random acts of aggression, or if they're related to the torment she's been subjected to by people, or if maybe there's a chemical/physical thing going on. This Lab has been her closest buddy for three years, so I don't get why she is directing her aggression at him. He is getting kind of old and down in his hips, so he really doesn't stand much of a chance against her if she decides one day to "unleash."

My dilemma is wondering if we are going to have to put her down, or if there is some viable option. She is very well obedience trained and I have no problem getting her to obey commands, so I don't think it's her training. She has never challenged MY "alpha" position, so I'm not afraid for myself. I am becoming increasingly afraid that she may eventually start to charge my smaller dogs which she is almost always submissive to now (doing to roll over and expose her belly thing while they all pile on top of her and play). I love her dearly and she is such a sweetie (when she isn't being a brat, if that makes any sense at all), but I do have a responsibility to keep ALL my dogs safe. Keeping her isolated from everyone is really not a viable option, at least not longterm. I don't see rehoming her as an option because, if I understand our state laws correctly, if I rehome her with the knowledge that she is a "vicious" dog, and she bites someone else, I'm still responsible. I've never given any of my dogs away, anyway, but then I've never had to contemplate putting one down for aggression. I also have no doubt in my mind that if someone were to enter our yard uninvited, she would bite. As bad as I hate our neighborhood children, I don't put it past them to climb the fence again sometime when we're not home (we have a pool that they always ask to get into and one kid even came out and told me he'd just wait until I'm not home since, "I ain't afraid of yo' dogs!") and, beside not wanting to see some little ^&$! get his butt bitten, I really don't need that financial responsibility. She WILL bite one and I don't know that she'll stop at just a bite. I'm hoping there's something someone can tell me from a behavioral point of view.

I love this ol' gal, but I love all my dogs... help. :-?


Before anyone gets upset at me, please understand that I'm not placing any blame on the breed (though I don't think of her as a breed, but a mutt). The fact that she looks like the stereotypical vicious breed is one of the reasons I think people have chosen to torment her. Any time you have a supposedly "vicious" breed, I think bad people will go out of their way to prove that they are "badder" than the dog. The average badass ain't too worried about teasing the Poodle next door, ya know?

[Guest Anonymous]

Is there any way you can keep the kids out of your yard? maybe you can catch them somehow. about how old are they?

when all of your dogs are together keep a very close eye on her (I am sure you do, so I guess im not much help) but I hope you can solve this. Maybe you can call a behavorist?

[Guest Anonymous]

Horsefeathers napisał(a):

I'm having a dilemma that I'm hoping someone can help with. We seem to have several folks here who are knowledgeable in canine behavior and I sure would love some input.

I have a "Pit Bull"/Boxer mix (for all intents and purposes, a mutt). We've had her since she was five weeks old and she has been raised in a loving environment with no abuse from us. However, as a puppy, she was, unknown to us at the time, used as bait for some fighting Pit Bulls. Apparently, according to eye witnesses, some teens came around with their dogs and tied her up with a rope and drug her for "bait." She was in our yard where we thought she was perfectly safe. It never occurred to me to worry about such things.

As she grew, we fenced in our yard to keep out unwanted pests (neighborhood kids and other dogs) and to keep our dogs in. However, for the three years we've had her, neighborhood kids AND some of the parents of these little $%^@! have made a game of coming to the fence and agitating my dogs. They jump at them and throw at them just to make them bark and charge the fence. Repeated attempts to discourage this (calling the authorities, running out of the house screaming bloody hell, etc.) have never worked. Anyway, that's beside the point of what I need to know.

Penny (the dog I'm having problems with) did bite a boy a year or so ago when he was climbing our fence. This is the primary kid who torments her, so I guess it was coming. Anyway, now we have, according to the law, a "vicious dog" on record. If she ever bites anyone else, even if they are inside my house with a gun to my head, I will be held responsible.

Here's the thing now... Penny is becoming increasingly "unstable." She is just plain getting unpredictable. Most of the time, she is the sweetest, most loving dog anyone could ask for. However, once in a while she "clicks" and attacks my Lab. I have 7 other dogs beside her, some being as small as 4lbs, and what she could do to one of them is unthinkable if she chose to. So far, her "attacks" have been more bluffing and posing than actually damaging and she usually ONLY attacks the Lab. Until the other day. She did some damage. She bit into his face to the very bone during one of her "attacks." I do not get this behavior. My Lab has raised her (so to speak) since she was five weeks old. 99% of the time, they are inseparable and she adores him. It's just those times she "clicks." They used to share a house together. Now sometimes he can share it and other times she won't let him near it. When we let them into the house (I don't believe in keeping them solely outside, though that is where they spend most of their time), if she is asleep on the floor and someone accidentally bumps her, she comes up snarling and snapping as if she's a loaded spring. As if she doesn't really relax when she's asleep, but is instead paranoid (for lack of a better word). The attack the other day was when he tried to drink water the same time she was... something they typically do all the time. I don't get these random acts of aggression, or if they're related to the torment she's been subjected to by people, or if maybe there's a chemical/physical thing going on. This Lab has been her closest buddy for three years, so I don't get why she is directing her aggression at him. He is getting kind of old and down in his hips, so he really doesn't stand much of a chance against her if she decides one day to "unleash."

My dilemma is wondering if we are going to have to put her down, or if there is some viable option. She is very well obedience trained and I have no problem getting her to obey commands, so I don't think it's her training. She has never challenged MY "alpha" position, so I'm not afraid for myself. I am becoming increasingly afraid that she may eventually start to charge my smaller dogs which she is almost always submissive to now (doing to roll over and expose her belly thing while they all pile on top of her and play). I love her dearly and she is such a sweetie (when she isn't being a brat, if that makes any sense at all), but I do have a responsibility to keep ALL my dogs safe. Keeping her isolated from everyone is really not a viable option, at least not longterm. I don't see rehoming her as an option because, if I understand our state laws correctly, if I rehome her with the knowledge that she is a "vicious" dog, and she bites someone else, I'm still responsible. I've never given any of my dogs away, anyway, but then I've never had to contemplate putting one down for aggression. I also have no doubt in my mind that if someone were to enter our yard uninvited, she would bite. As bad as I hate our neighborhood children, I don't put it past them to climb the fence again sometime when we're not home (we have a pool that they always ask to get into and one kid even came out and told me he'd just wait until I'm not home since, "I ain't afraid of yo' dogs!") and, beside not wanting to see some little ^&$! get his butt bitten, I really don't need that financial responsibility. She WILL bite one and I don't know that she'll stop at just a bite. I'm hoping there's something someone can tell me from a behavioral point of view.

I love this ol' gal, but I love all my dogs... help. :-?


Before anyone gets upset at me, please understand that I'm not placing any blame on the breed (though I don't think of her as a breed, but a mutt). The fact that she looks like the stereotypical vicious breed is one of the reasons I think people have chosen to torment her. Any time you have a supposedly "vicious" breed, I think bad people will go out of their way to prove that they are "badder" than the dog. The average badass ain't too worried about teasing the Poodle next door, ya know?

I'm sorry to tell you that local kids are more than happy to torment the poodle next door - my dog is no longer child safe due to the neighbor's children :-(
Do I think its possible to control this situation - yes - do I think it can be safely done in your circumstances - not sure.
I would say its worth your while to get a veterinary behaviorist to come in and evaluate your situation. Thats a much better deal than asking internet advice and the most likely thing to help you make up your mind what can be done.
It may well be that given the circumstances you will have to make a hard decision particularly as you had no control over the agitation situations and it sounds like keeping your dogs seperated might be difficult.
The 'click on' is something the pitbull breed is known for as a breed trait. I'm not sure you can extinguish that behavior.

[Guest Anonymous]

This is what I was afraid of. Veterinary behavorists aren't a readily available option to me locally, at least not that I know of. My vet is just an ol' country doc and knows of no one locally experienced in behavioral issues. I had one referral from a Delta Society trainer, but this is the same chick that tried training my Lab by yanking the bejeebers out of him with a pincher, so I'm not sure I trust her credibility. I thought of a behaviorist(?), but the resources in our rural area are really limited. I could probably find an exorcist much more readily :-? .

I guess I was sort of hoping that someone could give me something physical to look for, too. A routine exam and blood work shows nothing out of the ordinary, but I was wondering if anyone knew of something specific I could look for. Some cutting edge breakthrough that I'm not aware of. I have a friend who believes that everything under the sun is traced to the thyroid and thinks I should have a full Michigan panel done instead of "regular" blood work. Who knows what she thinks that'll find in regard to aggression? Anyway, I'm grasping at straws here, but I guess I was hoping there was some magic bullet, or something physical/chemical I could specifically look for. How I wish I could find a credible behaviorist locally that could come to my home. I don't have a problem with her away from home. The problem is here and I'm in way over my head. :(

[Guest Anonymous]

Horsefeathers napisał(a):

This is what I was afraid of. Veterinary behavorists aren't a readily available option to me locally, at least not that I know of. My vet is just an ol' country doc and knows of no one locally experienced in behavioral issues. I had one referral from a Delta Society trainer, but this is the same chick that tried training my Lab by yanking the bejeebers out of him with a pincher, so I'm not sure I trust her credibility. I thought of a behaviorist(?), but the resources in our rural area are really limited. I could probably find an exorcist much more readily :-? .

I guess I was sort of hoping that someone could give me something physical to look for, too. A routine exam and blood work shows nothing out of the ordinary, but I was wondering if anyone knew of something specific I could look for. Some cutting edge breakthrough that I'm not aware of. I have a friend who believes that everything under the sun is traced to the thyroid and thinks I should have a full Michigan panel done instead of "regular" blood work. Who knows what she thinks that'll find in regard to aggression? Anyway, I'm grasping at straws here, but I guess I was hoping there was some magic bullet, or something physical/chemical I could specifically look for. How I wish I could find a credible behaviorist locally that could come to my home. I don't have a problem with her away from home. The problem is here and I'm in way over my head. :(

Well I heartily agree on the Michigan lab doing the top blood panels :-)
Did you tell us how old the dog in question is and how old the victim is?
An exorcist hmm might be worth a try :wink: I hadn't thought of that one :D
Maybe if you read through the books by Dodman you will see something that clicks for you in the behavior you are seeing and what he does to 'fix' that? he has three out on dog behavior problems and I've only read the first two as the third is a new one.
For an easy example could the trigger be a bone or rawhide then the simple solution is no more bones or rawhides around and maybe you had not spotted that trigger in the 'scenes' where the situations occured.
I DO believe dogs do things for reasons they find valid - I also think we are not always quick enough on the uptake to see what the valid reason was. Sure it could be medical but are we advanced enough to figure it out.
Pain maybe? does this cease if the mix is on an aspirin with buffers in it?
Could the lab be having siezures which trigger the other dog to attack?
Are the dogs just hitting a maturity point where they are no longer of differing statuses triggering a fight?
I also missed if this were same sex or opposite altercations - so much that in person can help with.
Maybe a trek to the vet school?

[Guest Anonymous]

My very best suggestion for you would be to try kenneling her. (her right?) Kennel training is a widley used successful way to help train dogs. In your case, no formal training is needed, but by keeping her in the kennel when you are away from home, not able to stop or protect her from "attacking" this will give you a little more security. Also she may not like it at first but then it would become a den, that is safe and secure away from her tormentors. I think that what you said about the parients of these kids, is right, a bunch of &(*%^ . I am a very, very responsable pet owner, and owner is not really the word, but I don't know a better one. They are my children, and people don't own thier children, but I would not accept that kind of tourment activity happen with my "children" and I think that the parients are just horrible parients to let thiers.

I am not a Vet, or a Behavoirist but I think that before you even consider putting her down, to make sure you have tried every option. Obviously something is going on here, and if this wasn't a problem in the past, then there might be something that is causing her to do this. What kind of activites does she do, would some aglility training get her to exhert some of the energy she is using for this agresstion? Would she benifit by some one on one time with you? What time of day is this agresstion happening, different times? Something that may be far fetched is that she may be deaf or have sight problems, and this can be mistaken as agresstion. The dogs who are deaf or may be loosing thier hearing, can get startled very easily. Try some of these things and just see if any work, GOOD LUCK, and I hope you don't have to put a good dog down.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think I have a solution. Not a good one but you can decide on that. Why don't you stay with the Lab and Penny and watch them very carefully. Watch for "unusual" behaviur, and if penny has one of her attacks, stop her hold her muzzle and look deeply into her eyes, say "NO!" and act deeply dissapointed at her behaivier(you will be). :wink: Anyway after that leave them, then try to remmember EXACTLY what she was doing before the attack. Did she just suddenly get angry? Did the Lab try to steal her toy or anything? Maybe she pains somewhere and when they hurt she "attacks" the nearest animal around( wich would most probably be the Lab). Is she neutred? If not it might be something hormonal? Anyway, just try to stay with them in your free time, watch thier behaivior VERY CAREFULLY! I advise you to go to [color=blue]www.dogfancy.com and go to the section " ask the vet" tell him your prob. and he'll post you back a reply. GOOD luck! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for the responses. I definitely see some viable options to try. As far as triggers... that's the hardest thing for me to figure out. What is perfectly acceptable to her forever just one day isn't. The incident the other day where she bit my Lab (male/neutered/about 5 - 6 years old) was when they both tried to drink from the water pail. It would make sense except that they've ALWAYS shared that pail with no regard for who goes first. That's been the hardest thing for me... trying to find any consistencies. Some things that have never been a problem for her before suddenly bother her. Someone mentioned vision problems. As a matter of fact, she's been plagued by periodic eye infections all her life and does seem to have some diminished vision. I never thought of that having anything to do with it. Hmmm... worth a thought. Xenachick, she does crate very well and I do keep her inside while I'm gone during the day while school is out for the summer. Can't take the chance on her gnawing some fence climbing kid. Penny is spayed, by the way, and 3 years old, if that makes a difference. No intact dogs in my household of eight. I was watching her tonight playing with the smaller dogs. She is soooooo submissive with them. I almost wonder sometimes if she's having mini seizures. I think I've about figured her out. She's just a crackpot :-? .

I'd love to be able to put this girl through agility. Agile is not the word I'd use for her. Amazing is more accurate. I believe she would make an awesome agility dog as far as her speed, cornering, jumping, coordination is concerned. Too bad I can't trust her 100% of the time around other dogs and people. :(

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. Definitely food for thought and I think I'll be seeing if I can find some of these Dodman(?) books since they seem to come so highly recommended. I suppose now is as good a time as any for me to get acquainted with Amazon. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for the responses. I definitely see some viable options to try. As far as triggers... that's the hardest thing for me to figure out. What is perfectly acceptable to her forever just one day isn't. The incident the other day where she bit my Lab (male/neutered/about 5 - 6 years old) was when they both tried to drink from the water pail. It would make sense except that they've ALWAYS shared that pail with no regard for who goes first. That's been the hardest thing for me... trying to find any consistencies. Some things that have never been a problem for her before suddenly bother her. Someone mentioned vision problems. As a matter of fact, she's been plagued by periodic eye infections all her life and does seem to have some diminished vision. I never thought of that having anything to do with it. Hmmm... worth a thought. Xenachick, she does crate very well and I do keep her inside while I'm gone during the day while school is out for the summer. Can't take the chance on her gnawing some fence climbing kid. Penny is spayed, by the way, and 3 years old, if that makes a difference. No intact dogs in my household of eight. I was watching her tonight playing with the smaller dogs. She is soooooo submissive with them. I almost wonder sometimes if she's having mini seizures. I think I've about figured her out. She's just a crackpot :-? .

I'd love to be able to put this girl through agility. Agile is not the word I'd use for her. Amazing is more accurate. I believe she would make an awesome agility dog as far as her speed, cornering, jumping, coordination is concerned. Too bad I can't trust her 100% of the time around other dogs and people. :(

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. Definitely food for thought and I think I'll be seeing if I can find some of these Dodman(?) books since they seem to come so highly recommended. I suppose now is as good a time as any for me to get acquainted with Amazon. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

It's not that I was THAT enthusiastic in my reply... it just sent it twice. Oh well, the DogOmania gods don't like me, I guess. :-?

[Guest Anonymous]

Horsefeathers napisał(a):

It's not that I was THAT enthusiastic in my reply... it just sent it twice. Oh well, the DogOmania gods don't like me, I guess. :-?

I think Dodman can help you see some things a little better which might help you figure out what to do.
The water pail bit is a reasonable situation if you are a dog - dogs tend to wish to control resources - the water could be that and they might share ok as long as one dog is giving a deferential signal - maybe the vision issues caused the missing of a submission signal which rated punishment being handed out.
Trying to see stuff from the dog's point of view is what you need to do I think to figure this out.