Need Info On Seizures

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay after Jacs busy weekend (broken femur) we received 2 opinions from vets that Jac was indeed suffering from seizures... After the trauma from his leg is cleared the vet is going to do some blood work and other tests to see if we can figure out where these are coming from... Here is some info that I have on hand and I need some opinions and links or whatever you can give that is liable...

These 'seizures' are not grandmal. He remains awake and alert. He wags his tail and turns his head and moves his eyes. There is no foaming or drooling or loss of bladder control.

There is no specific time. He has had them in the morning, at night, middle of the day, outside, inside, in the kennel, after he eats, before he eats, after swimming.

They last approx. 1-2 mintues. They look in all honesty like a muscle cramp of all legs and he moans this loud moan you can hear through out the house.I have contacted the breeder and no other littermates or previous littermates have had this problem.

Since 6-7 he has had 9 of these 'seizures'. That is ones that we witnessed and caught. That would not include the ones that he 'might' have had when we were not around and he was in his kennel.

Remember he is only 6 months old.. He is on Interceptor. He had all shots including Rabies. These 'seizures' started when he was 3 1/2 to 4 months old but only effected the front legs to start with then it became a whole body or rather legs thing. I have spoke with a breeder and she said that when you worm pups to early that they can suffer neurological damage when they grow up but not show it until then. Meaning they show nothing but maybe a upset tummy or weakness when wormed as babies but when maturing the neurological damage shows up. Has anyone heard of this?
She said their is really no way to detect this but it does happen and she had seen it before in labs (she was a breeder of Labs of course).

Any info would be great or links...Just trying to figure out what or why he is having these.. I know they are either enviromental or hereditary. :roll: Sooo.. :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

www.drsfostersmith.com

this is where I go to find out anwsers about my dogs medical questions. Once you are on the site then look around and try to find the pet edcutuion section.. click on it and I am sure you can figure it out from there.. hope this helps! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Here try this I think it will take you directly to there...

www.peteducation.com/default.cfm

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Jacsmom']Okay after Jacs busy weekend (broken femur) we received 2 opinions from vets that Jac was indeed suffering from seizures... After the trauma from his leg is cleared the vet is going to do some blood work and other tests to see if we can figure out where these are coming from... Here is some info that I have on hand and I need some opinions and links or whatever you can give that is liable...

These 'seizures' are not grandmal. He remains awake and alert. He wags his tail and turns his head and moves his eyes. There is no foaming or drooling or loss of bladder control.

There is no specific time. He has had them in the morning, at night, middle of the day, outside, inside, in the kennel, after he eats, before he eats, after swimming.

They last approx. 1-2 mintues. They look in all honesty like a muscle cramp of all legs and he moans this loud moan you can hear through out the house.I have contacted the breeder and no other littermates or previous littermates have had this problem.

Since 6-7 he has had 9 of these 'seizures'. That is ones that we witnessed and caught. That would not include the ones that he 'might' have had when we were not around and he was in his kennel.

Remember he is only 6 months old.. He is on Interceptor. He had all shots including Rabies. These 'seizures' started when he was 3 1/2 to 4 months old but only effected the front legs to start with then it became a whole body or rather legs thing. I have spoke with a breeder and she said that when you worm pups to early that they can suffer neurological damage when they grow up but not show it until then. Meaning they show nothing but maybe a upset tummy or weakness when wormed as babies but when maturing the neurological damage shows up. Has anyone heard of this?
She said their is really no way to detect this but it does happen and she had seen it before in labs (she was a breeder of Labs of course).

Any info would be great or links...Just trying to figure out what or why he is having these.. I know they are either enviromental or hereditary. :roll: Sooo.. :roll:

try this link http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/ best I have found yet :-)
has something about a new thing called movement disorders

Never heard anything like that on worming but I use the safest womers going only and I worm at 2 and 4 weeks!

do labs ever get Wobblers?

[Guest Anonymous]

good luck! :cry:

[Guest Anonymous]

Jacsmom napisał(a):

Okay after Jacs busy weekend (broken femur) we received 2 opinions from vets that Jac was indeed suffering from seizures... After the trauma from his leg is cleared the vet is going to do some blood work and other tests to see if we can figure out where these are coming from... Here is some info that I have on hand and I need some opinions and links or whatever you can give that is liable...

These 'seizures' are not grandmal. He remains awake and alert. He wags his tail and turns his head and moves his eyes. There is no foaming or drooling or loss of bladder control.

There is no specific time. He has had them in the morning, at night, middle of the day, outside, inside, in the kennel, after he eats, before he eats, after swimming.

They last approx. 1-2 mintues. They look in all honesty like a muscle cramp of all legs and he moans this loud moan you can hear through out the house.I have contacted the breeder and no other littermates or previous littermates have had this problem.

Since 6-7 he has had 9 of these 'seizures'. That is ones that we witnessed and caught. That would not include the ones that he 'might' have had when we were not around and he was in his kennel.

Remember he is only 6 months old.. He is on Interceptor. He had all shots including Rabies. These 'seizures' started when he was 3 1/2 to 4 months old but only effected the front legs to start with then it became a whole body or rather legs thing. I have spoke with a breeder and she said that when you worm pups to early that they can suffer neurological damage when they grow up but not show it until then. Meaning they show nothing but maybe a upset tummy or weakness when wormed as babies but when maturing the neurological damage shows up. Has anyone heard of this?
She said their is really no way to detect this but it does happen and she had seen it before in labs (she was a breeder of Labs of course).

Any info would be great or links...Just trying to figure out what or why he is having these.. I know they are either enviromental or hereditary. :roll: Sooo.. :roll:

Okay, I'm rushed for time (I'll be back later to add some more stuff) but.....tell me something: Do you spray your yard for insects, if so-what do you spray with? Do you use any herbicides?

I think the breeder is a little out in left field about the worms and worming at an early age. We have always dewormed at 2, 3, 4, and 6 wks then it's every month there-after until they are 4 months (then everyone is on Interceptor). A fecal test is better, I think, than just worming all the time, because of the resistance to the wormers that can build up in the worms.

I know this is only found in horses and humans (so far), but read this and tell me what you think:

Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis Disease (HYPP) is a muscular disease that affects both horses and humans. It is caused by a hereditary genetic defect that disrupts a protein called a sodium ion channel, a tiny gateway in the membrane of muscle cells. The genetic defect disrupts the channel's normal opening and closing, such that uncontrolled sodium influxes occur. These influxes in turn change the voltage current of muscle cells, causing uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness. High levels of potassium in the blood usually are present when the disruptions in the ion channel occur.

The HYPP is far fetched, but worth asking your vet to check his potassium level after he has had a seizure (if possible). Might as well cover all the angles. I have seen horses that have had HYPP and it is like a charlie horse in every muscle of their body ---- very painful.

Another thing that would be helpful: make a list of all the terratogens that he could come in contact with ---- treated wood (decks, floors etc...), household cleaners, hair sprays, anything..... from A to Z.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jacsmom: Vitamin E and Selenium (white muscle disease) deficiency may be something you want to check also.

Here is a site about "Scotty Cramps". Maybe it's not only in Scotty's, just no one has thought to look at this.


http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=4489

Scotty Cramps
by: Dr. Bari Spielman


Overview

Scotty cramps is an inherited neurologic disorder in Scottish terriers characterized by episodic or intermittent muscle rigidity or cramping. It is an inherited condition and is usually seen in Scotties under one year of age, affecting males and females equally. Affected dogs are generally normal at rest and on initiation of exercise.

What to Watch For


Spreading of the front limbs during heavy exercise or excitement

Arching of the spine

Stiffening or overflexion or bending of the hind limbs

Frequent falling

Changes in respiration

Contracted facial muscles.

Episodes may last up to 30 minutes

Diagnosis


Baseline tests to include a complete blood count (CBC), biochemical profile, and urinalysis are recommended in all patients, and may be within normal limits.


Screening chest and abdominal radiographs (X-rays) are an important part of any baseline workup, especially to rule out other disorders.


Clinical signs may be induced by giving the drug methysergide.

Treatment


Most patients are treated on an outpatient basis.


Behavioral modification and/or environmental changes such as minimizing stress and excitement may be adequate in some cases.


Selected sedatives or tranquilizers may reduce the incidence and severity of episodes.


Vitamin E is recommended.

Home Care and Prevention

Administer all medication and institute environmental changes as directed by your veterinarian. Avoid certain medications, such as aspirin and penicillin, as they may worsen signs.

Do not breed affected animals and do not repeat breeding the sire and dam (pair) that produced the affected offspring.

[Guest Anonymous]

These 'attacks' almost seem to be large muscle cramps that affect all limbs. I have tried massage to all limbs and it doesn't help. I have tried rubbing his spine which on occassion does arch and on occassion this does help.

The first post Tic Doc: We have a filtration system on our well which holds many things but one being Solar Salt which helps filter the water (which is way worse for human consumption without it!) Would this have anything to do with soduim influxes occuring? I have wondered about the filtration system causing this before. I have on several occassions DAILY noticed twiching in his legs. mainly front.

I would not think Scotty Cramps because he has had these 'seizures' first thing in the morning while still in the kennel. That is why it is so hard to generalize a specific thing or time frame because there is not really one.

What do you know about Paroxysmal Dyskinesia?
By the way no I do not spray the yard! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Jacsmom']These 'attacks' almost seem to be large muscle cramps that affect all limbs. I have tried massage to all limbs and it doesn't help. I have tried rubbing his spine which on occassion does arch and on occassion this does help.

The first post Tic Doc: We have a filtration system on our well which holds many things but one being Solar Salt which helps filter the water (which is way worse for human consumption without it!) Would this have anything to do with soduim influxes occuring? I have wondered about the filtration system causing this before. I have on several occassions DAILY noticed twiching in his legs. mainly front.

I would not think Scotty Cramps because he has had these 'seizures' first thing in the morning while still in the kennel. That is why it is so hard to generalize a specific thing or time frame because there is not really one.

What do you know about Paroxysmal Dyskinesia?
By the way no I do not spray the yard! :wink:


Have you seen this video or visited this website:
http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/Chinook/chinook.html

Reference to your well: have you had it tested for nitrates, nitrites, etc... How much excess sodium is the solar salt putting in the water? I am not familar with the amount that would be toxic....but, will research it and find out if I can locate any literature.

The yard spraying was referring to: if you spray using a Carbamate, deworm your dog and the dog ingests any amount of the Carbamate; it is an instant fatality. I know you are going to ask which dewormer - I can't remember (see, I'm getting old and senile :wink: ).

[Guest Anonymous]

SEE!?! The last post was mine, I forgot to sign in! :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

Yep I saw it and that is as close to what they look like as it gets!! My only thing is it says they last 30 mins. I have 1-2 min. It looks so much like it , it is scary!! Question would be they also refer to Paroxsymal Dyskinesia? and that these 'seizures' are in a gray area of not even really being a seizure...(correct me if I am wrong)(pulling of memory...what memory you ask??) SOOO what tests can be done for something not even considered a 'seizure'. RESEARCH time!!

[Guest Anonymous]

Good website:
http://www.purelypets.com/articles/epilepsyarticle.htm


Solar salt: Morton

[Guest Anonymous]

It's Jacsmom napisał(a):

Yep I saw it and that is as close to what they look like as it gets!! My only thing is it says they last 30 mins. I have 1-2 min. It looks so much like it , it is scary!! Question would be they also refer to Paroxsymal Dyskinesia? and that these 'seizures' are in a gray area of not even really being a seizure...(correct me if I am wrong)(pulling of memory...what memory you ask??) SOOO what tests can be done for something not even considered a 'seizure'. RESEARCH time!!

If it doesn't fit into the "normal category" then where does IT fit. There could be a million things that could be causing this. Too much of this tieing up too much of that, it's just crazy.

[Guest Anonymous]

http://www.purebredlabs.com/seizures_in_dogs.htm
is one site on the subject I found using the breed name, the word seizure in google.com search engine
lots of info out there
and a seizure does not have to be long or have a specific thing like incontinence go with it

[Guest Anonymous]

The symptoms seems to be very general, could happen-but doesn't have to, may happen, snapping at imaginary flies, anything from a slight stare to hours of drooling/paddling/stiffness.

It all means, no one knows and if it's something they can't explain then it will be placed in the category of a "seizure". Frustrating isn't it? On top of that EVERYTHING and ANYTHING can cause it!

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

http://www.purebredlabs.com/seizures_in_dogs.htm
is one site on the subject I found using the breed name, the word seizure in google.com search engine
lots of info out there
and a seizure does not have to be long or have a specific thing like incontinence go with it

I know that part but there is usully a recovery time after a seizure even if it is a minute and in that time there is a type of disillusion (per say). Jac will mave towards you turning these 'seizures' and wags his tail. It seems to me that if he is having a seizure that is affecting the muscles in his hind legs that the muscle that wags his tail would also be affected and 'cramping'. I am a sufferer of seizures myself (grandmal and petit mal). All those muscles 'cramp' from toes to head on both at least in my case. I also have stareing episodes in some cases but all have a type of recovery period. Jac has none most of the time. He is up jumping and playing right after....This is where I am at a loss. I have even stuck my hand in his mouth (brave if you ask me) during his 'seizure' and his mouth is not affected either. He will follow a treat or your hand and pupils are normal during this time also.. Most affected by a 'seizure' do not have the ability to do movements they 'want to do'.. :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Jacsmom:
When can Jac be tested? Any way to test his urine as well as blood?

It sounds like a misfire in the brain. On the other hand, it sounds like a deficiency or imbalance of potassium, sodium, or other. Just when that starts to make sense, it sounds like a chemical reaction to either something environmentally or biologically. When all the neurological possibilities start making sense, it sounds maybe muscular related.

Pinched nerve? Lyme disease (grasping at straws here)?

Please keep us updated.

[Guest Anonymous]

Vet said that due to his trauma with leg that all test would come up wrong or misleading.. So after he is better we are going for tests...Approx 2 months...!! Boy doesn't that sound wonderful!!!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay........2 months! A Lab....sedate for 2 months?? POOR YOU.

Here's another thought, playing devils advocate: could the break be related (some way) to the seizures?

Could whatever is causing the seizures, if it is a deficiency, predisposed him to have weak bones, or a weak bone, or lose his balance?

Okay, I'm trying to say----could they be related? Grasping more straws.

[Guest Anonymous]

That is what I asked the vet "Have you ever had a 6 month old lab?" and you want me to keep him still how long? LOL

I thought the same thing!!! He broke his FEMUR!!! He had an oblique break in the middle of his femur... It was approx. 3-5 inches long!! It was so bad when the vet repaired it he had to manuever the bone to get it back together..In doing so Jac has no feeling in that foot for now. He is 'knuckling' on his foot when he goes out to the bathroom. I asked if that was normal he said no!! The emergency vet said that that is the hardest bone to break on a dog!! Jac jumped up for a ball that my son was bouncing and (I am guessing)his foot caught on the ground but he landed on his lower back (he was approx. 1 1/2 ft. in air). It is something he never does but this time he did!!! My husband heard it pop before he landed... Which to me was interesting....

I am grabbing the same straws!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

OUCH. You know when your granny falls and breaks her hip. The fall didn't actually break the hip.......the hip broke and caused her to fall.

At 6 months, he should not have broken that leg. It just sounds like it's somehow related (I have about 20 straws now!) to the seizures.

People when they have an imbalance, like calcium tying up phosphorus, or an imbalance of potassium -- they have seizures. That was sort of silly, everything you do can causes a seizure.

Jacs are just not "normal" seizures. Misfire, pinched nerve, something on that line.

Okay, if he doesn't have feeling in his paw, it still has blood flow, right?

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes there is blood flow but there is or possibly is nerve damage!! More worderful news to add to the already wonderful news!! Question would potassium show up in a CBC? We have wondered about a pinched nerve or slipped disc in his back.. but when a 6 month old goes and breaks a femur it makes you wonder... He is fed good food and is VERY healthy weighing 68 1/2 lbs and standing 19" at withers. Not fat just build well. He is very healthy.. That is what is so hard to understand... His legs are the same size from his body to his foot. I agree with you that they are not "normal" and the vets I talked to before this one are saying we will do 2 tests and after that he is classified as epileptic... I am not willing to settle that easy! Sorry...!!! More straws

[Guest Anonymous]

Description (CBC):
The complete blood count (CBC) quantitates the number of red blood cells (RBCs), white blood cells (WBCs), the total amount of hemoglobin in the blood, the fraction of the blood composed of cells (hematocrit), and the size of the red blood cells (MCV, mean corpuscular volume).

Ask for a Element Minerals Profile
Included in this test are:

Albuminum
Antimony
Arsenic
Berium
Beryllium
Boron
Bismuth
Cadmium
Calcium
Chromium
Cobalt
Copper
Germanium
Iodine
Iron
Lead
Lithium
Magnesium
Mangenese
Mercury
Molybdenum
Nickel
Phosphorus
Platinum
Potassium
Rubidium
Selenium
Silver
Sodium
Strontium
Sulfur
Thallium
Thorium
Tin
Titanium
Uranium
Vanmadium
Zinc
Zirconium


Jac sounds like a normal, growing boy. It sounds like the vet(s) are just as baffled as you are.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah I mention the CEN site with the Chinooks 'seizures' he said what??? I told him I would print it and give him the site!! The first vet said we do CBC and a liver panel.. So asked about a thyroid... They said that really would not show anything... Well from what I have read lots of Labs and for that matter dogs in general have thyroid problems that will in turn give seizures sometimes... Makes you wonder how many dogs they have on seizure meds with a thyroid problem????

Second vet said muscles not keeping up with bones switch food..done...'Seizures' increase..(I see another straw)(Hold for straw) If they keep up could be a pinched nerve or disc in back....

Here is the straw...What would large breed puppy food contain that adult food would not??????(that is the new straw!!?) :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Jacsmom']Yes there is blood flow but there is or possibly is nerve damage!! More worderful news to add to the already wonderful news!! Question would potassium show up in a CBC? We have wondered about a pinched nerve or slipped disc in his back.. but when a 6 month old goes and breaks a femur it makes you wonder... He is fed good food and is VERY healthy weighing 68 1/2 lbs and standing 19" at withers. Not fat just build well. He is very healthy.. That is what is so hard to understand... His legs are the same size from his body to his foot. I agree with you that they are not "normal" and the vets I talked to before this one are saying we will do 2 tests and after that he is classified as epileptic... I am not willing to settle that easy! Sorry...!!! More straws



You're right, 2 tests? ONLY 2 test? Hum....definately more straws.