showing dogs with hereditary defects

[Guest Anonymous]

what are your views on showing dogs with hereditary defects, that might not show initially but are there and are grounds for excluding this dog for breeding????? Like fe PRA or HD???

[Guest Anonymous]

nanouk napisał(a):

what are your views on showing dogs with hereditary defects, that might not show initially but are there and are grounds for excluding this dog for breeding????? Like fe PRA or HD???

I say why bother? if the breed ring is for selecting the producers of the next generations then showing those dogs is hardly worthwhile.
OTOH if the breed ring is simply about winning and collecting wins and building up owner egos as some believe then who cares what people do in the terms of showing non breeding quality dogs and dyed dogs and otherwise 'fixed' dogs?
Now showing the dogs with known hereditary problems in obedience or agility etc if they can do those activities would be fine IMO.
I think if you are going to compete in the breed ring you should be bringing in to show only breeding quality dogs - ones that can contribute to the breed by offering the best qualities of the breed to the next generations.

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

In my opinion, dogs with hereditary defects can be shown in obedience and in agility but if it severe enough, they should be just pets. Also consider that some obedience dogs and agility dogs that are of sound structure and health are also used for breeding stock because of their natural abilities in these areas. For example, if I were a breeder of newfs and I knew that my dogs had some cosmetic flaws (ie. muzzle a little long, ears a little long, a little smaller or a little larger than the standard) but had natural water instincts and working instincts and were in exellent health, I would breed them to help preserve these abilities that they possess. I think that is one of the problems with conformation. Just because a dog is a champion does not necessarily mean that they can do what a dog is supposed to do. I am seeing more and more the natural abilities of dogs being lost for the sake of looks and winning shows. Pretty soon all breeds will lose their instincts for which they were bred. In fact, you even see most breeds losing some of their physical characteristics for the sake of winning shows (ie coats). I have also seen and heard of beautiful champion dogs being show with bad hips and elbows and carriers of SAS and cystinuria. I would rather have the working instincts and for the dog to be healthy and sound before I would have a champion with some defect.

But why would you breed non standard dogs with the breed's intended working abilities if you could choose to breed dogs that meet the standard that had those abilities- certainly newfs are not rare! I can understand breeding less than perfect dogs as genotype is more important than phenotype when breeding but IMO choosing the best to breed instead of just breeding what you have is what is important.
I never have figured out how breeding for soundness and breed looks makes working instincts go away the way so many people claim it automatically does. If its there in the genes its going to show up.
I suppose that even when you try to breed for working instincts you get some dogs that are better than others in their working abilities so you cold lose some of them or partially lose them if you don't select for working ability at all. But then so many breeds that do have strong working abilities make miserable pets because of them and most dogs end up as pets not workers so is it bad to lose the need to work (if you happen to) for the majority of the dogs? Ah its a real puzzle.
IMO you should not sacrifice one thing for another in breeding instead you should be trying to accomplish all things in the breeding program to better the dogs for the lives they will lead.

[Guest Anonymous]

the reason i asked..and am very curious...is that i own a Saarlooswolfhound...a rare breed, and show my dog....now rumours are spread that a dog that has been showed often has PRA..... and is owned by a key person of the dutch society for Saarlooswolfhounds.....

In my views you can show a dog that misses fe a P1 but know way in hell can a key person of the society show a dog with a hereditary defect like PRA.......
how can a dog with a hereditary defect be the best a breed has to offer????


note: this is not jealousy, i'm very pleased with the results i get in the ring...i'm just concerned about the prospects of the breed!

Nanouk

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh my gosh! I lloovvee Saarloos Wolfhounds! I have never been able to get to see one in real life. I think they are the most beautiful dog that has ever been bred.. just so.. royal or something!

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

Let me give you an example. All of my newfs are healthy, sound, have no genetic defects. They are, for the most part, show quality (they all meet the AKC standard). The problems lies in the fact that they are considered "Old" style newfs (they look like newfs from the 1930s-1960s). Even though they are show quality, they would never make it in a show ring compared to today's newfs. They meet the standards of a newf but none of the newfs today are really the standard anymore. They don't have the working coats they should, are much larger than the standard. They all look like they live in the beauty parlor. I know that some of them never go for the working titles. If they did, there would be more VN (Versitile Newfoundland) titles. If I wanted to, I would have bred my newfs because of their working abilities. I do agree with you, however, that most working dogs do not belong with people that have no experience in channeling their energies.

OH I see you meant 'breed type' vs show winners :-)
Yes I understand what you mean - what wins in the show ring - particularly in all breed shows judged by all breed people - is not always a good example of a breed, instead it may just be a showy dog or one with a good handler. Too bad the way the show ring goes that this happens more frequently than it used to back when people really had to understand a breed to judge it. As the numbers and frequency of shows went up the numbers of judges who knew more about a breed than what their colleagues put up last weekend has diminished IMO.
I thought you meant you would breed one that was not in standard over one that was just for the working ability. Not quite the same thing at all :-)
Show ring fads don't count as much as the standard does to me. What really annoys me is the show folks changing the standard so their dogs can win instead of breeding better dogs!

[Guest Anonymous]

nanoekie napisał(a):

the reason i asked..and am very curious...is that i own a Saarlooswolfhound...a rare breed, and show my dog....now rumours are spread that a dog that has been showed often has PRA..... and is owned by a key person of the dutch society for Saarlooswolfhounds.....

In my views you can show a dog that misses fe a P1 but know way in hell can a key person of the society show a dog with a hereditary defect like PRA.......
how can a dog with a hereditary defect be the best a breed has to offer????
note: this is not jealousy, i'm very pleased with the results i get in the ring...i'm just concerned about the prospects of the breed!
Nanouk

Hmm one needs to look at the people who are first saying what is rumored - are *they* jealous? or do they have facts from a veterinarian?
Second for some people winning in shows is all they see. For some reason they turn a blind eye to the impact on the breed and as long as they can win and sell pups that is all that matters to them.
I see such people here in the states also in power in dog clubs and presented as authorities on breeds. I think it is a fact of human life that political type people end up running clubs and that ethics is not always the important thing to them. The rest of us just have to keep educating new people about the breed and avoid breeding to dogs with known health problems.

[Guest Anonymous]

newfiemom napisał(a):

I also do know of several newfs that are champions that are carriers of cystinuria and have bad hips. It's a shame...they are the show only new that don't fit the standard but do fit the new standard and I don't think it's fair because I for one would never consider any of these dogs are breeding material. There is only one newf I can think of that fits the standard and is the only one to have is championship in conformation and in the obedience ring. Most would not consider him to be championship material but I think he's gorgeous. He's also very healthy.

Fads in breeds come and go in the show ring and one way to make them go is to fill the breed ring in your area with typy sound dogs that meet the standard and win with them :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

[Hmm one needs to look at the people who are first saying what is rumored - are *they* jealous? or do they have facts from a veterinarian?
Second for some people winning in shows is all they see. For some reason they turn a blind eye to the impact on the breed and as long as they can win and sell pups that is all that matters to them.
.

the source of this rumour is a vet and a man that owns 4 PRA affected SWH....he doesn't show his dogs but is very concerned about the future of the breed!


this lady that owns the dog i'm speaking about is a keyperson in the dutch association of SWH, and they are very proud of their centralised breeding....this lady decides which dogs are suitable for breeding!!!
How can it be that such an imnportant person for the breed goes arouns showing a beautifull, but PRA affected dog???? is this dog the future of the SWH???

(the complete population of SWH is maybe between 1000 and 1500 dogs....)

Nanouk

[Guest roo]

Knowingly breeding from a dog with defects is ethically wrong, In a breed with a small gene pool it becomes even harder for anyone to improve on a given breed, some problems only rear there ugly heads very ocassionally, and others show up all the time.
In the uk years ago there was a very very famous stud in gsd's who sired 100s of pups, he was passing on heamophillia(excuse the spelling) let alone other problems, this went on for years.
Eventually the kennel club stopped any litters being registered from this dog or his offspring, quite correct, but the damage done to the breed is unforgivable.
If this stalwart of the breed shows the dog it will not hurt anyone, but if she uses that dog for breeding? then i am afraid the breed is in the hands of someone wo has no ethics and really could not give a dam about this breed. :evil:
There really is nothing you can do about it, if your kennel club wont do anything you can't either. Just carry on trying to improve this breed, being ethical and moral and your efforts with eventually shine through the mess that this stalwart will leave in her wake.
Good luck, keep going and never ever give up.
Roo :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

roo napisał(a):

snip ood stuff
There really is nothing you can do about it, if your kennel club wont do anything you can't either. Just carry on trying to improve this breed, being ethical and moral and your efforts with eventually shine through the mess that this stalwart will leave in her wake.
Good luck, keep going and never ever give up.
Roo :lol:

I can tell you one thing I have done with my breed that has made a good sized ripple in how things are being done - I tell EVERYONE interested in the breed to ask breeders what health testing they are doing before breeding and list out the common tests for the breed. Having people looking for pups ask the questions over and over and moving on when the answers do not suit them seems to make the breeders more interested in doing health testing and having the results be good!

[Guest roo]

Yes guest this is true, but it is very hard in a numerically small breed to be able to be heard, new comers to these small breeds often go to the top people to get their info and dogs from, as to if these top people are ethical and moral is other matter, if someone does their research into a rare breed, 9 times out of 10 they would find oiut who is big in the breed first and contact them for info, it is a real shame that the breeds are in such dangerous hands. :cry:
Roo

[Guest Anonymous]

roo napisał(a):

Yes guest this is true, but it is very hard in a numerically small breed to be able to be heard, new comers to these small breeds often go to the top people to get their info and dogs from, as to if these top people are ethical and moral is other matter, if someone does their research into a rare breed, 9 times out of 10 they would find oiut who is big in the breed first and contact them for info, it is a real shame that the breeds are in such dangerous hands. :cry:
Roo

Actually my favored breed is pretty rare so I know this works in a small venue - not sure how well it would work in a breed with larger numbers (though the word on HD in some popular breeds is out nicely now) but in a 'small world' eventually you are likely to trip over the ethical as well as the less than ethical. I get so many people contacting me about the breed I have a standard realistic info pack and a list of responsible breeders I hand out - more than the breed club does! And I know it has had a impact because suddenly the 'big' people are doing a lot more about health testing AND careful puppy placement than anyone in the breed ever did before nosy noisy old me came along :lol:

[Guest roo]

Well guest, your breed is lucky to have noisy nosy old you.
I think your info pack is a good idea, i do one that goes with my pups.
Just out of interest what is your breed?
Roo
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

roo napisał(a):

Well guest, your breed is lucky to have noisy nosy old you.
I think your info pack is a good idea, i do one that goes with my pups.
Just out of interest what is your breed?
Roo
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah ah ah - that would be telling :lol:

I can't say its a rapid method of resolving problems within a breed but its something and over time it seems to work - one never knows when the info will end up influencing newcomers to the breed who will then go on to do the same with the people they contact :-)
Just this week I had to explain to a perfectly nice person who wanted a pet female to breed a few times because there were not enough of the breed in the world <SIGH> just why I don't sell intact pets for breeding.

[Louis]

nanoekie can I just state that you have a stunning dog there, what a beautiful breed!! I seem to remember reading about them a long time ago, but I barely remembered them.. wow, what a stunner!! :)