philosophy on 'fixing' dogs for shows

[Guest Anonymous]

Another thread made me think to ask this - lame dogs are excused from being shown in the breed ring so do you think it is ethical to give your dog's aspirin so they don't limp in order to win at the shows?
It is supposed to be against the rules to 'fix' the dogs so they can win.
What do you all think?

[Guest Anonymous]

sashagirl napisał(a):

She said they give aspirin when it is causing them pain. Not that they give them aspirin before the shows so they don't limp.

She also said it worked great because the dogs were doing well in the show ring which is what sparked the asking for opinions on this.
It worries me a lot that the newcomers to the show world are learning all the ways to cheat as being the normal way to do things instead of learning how to select and prepare for showing a good quality dog. If showing is only about winning then the anything goes folks may be right but showing is supposed to be about selecting the next generations of breeding dogs and cheating doesn't change genetics.

[Guest Anonymous]

heres annother qurestion about annother kind of "fixing" why cant you have your spayed or neutered dog in a show? you would think that they would promote spaying/neutering, but they wont let you show them? what about cats? I think they let you show fixed cats....

Oh and i do think if there dog is in pain they shouldnt show it for the dog's sake, even if you do give it pain killers.

[Guest Anonymous]

sashagirl napisał(a):

I really do not know about the show world... I have never even been to a show. :x Though I would love to go. So I really have no place debating this. I do think you're right, that cheating should not be tolerated. When I read her post I did not interpret it that way. I can see now, how you did. So now I am not sure what she meant... :-?

It just sparked the idea - I once saw a top dog given a shot just before ring time and its limp magically went away...

[Guest Anonymous]

candybug2002 napisał(a):

heres annother qurestion about annother kind of "fixing" why cant you have your spayed or neutered dog in a show? you would think that they would promote spaying/neutering, but they wont let you show them? what about cats? I think they let you show fixed cats....

Oh and i do think if there dog is in pain they shouldnt show it for the dog's sake, even if you do give it pain killers.

If you are selecting the best breeding stock in the breed ring why would you want spayed and neutered dogs entered at all? - they certainly are not 'breeders' or even potential breeders :lol:
You can show the 'fixed' dogs in obedience and I think every other AKC activity except the one used to select breeding stock so its not like the dogs cannot compete anywhere else.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

sashagirl napisał(a):

She said they give aspirin when it is causing them pain. Not that they give them aspirin before the shows so they don't limp.

She also said it worked great because the dogs were doing well in the show ring which is what sparked the asking for opinions on this.
It worries me a lot that the newcomers to the show world are learning all the ways to cheat as being the normal way to do things instead of learning how to select and prepare for showing a good quality dog. If showing is only about winning then the anything goes folks may be right but showing is supposed to be about selecting the next generations of breeding dogs and cheating doesn't change genetics.

Ok you have something against me and I know what it is. You are still assuming things. The guy I show for has been breeding and showing for OVER 30 years. The dogs are doing great in the show ring! Did I ever say that he gives it to them right before I enter NO! I ment at handling classes and when I'm working them. So what it is my business NOT yours. You really need to but out of this. You are always out trying to throw negitive things at me. Well I have had it. I love dog showing it it my most fun thing in life. Then for you to come and say that I'm cheating! I would never cheat at a dog show and never will. And if anybody I show for ever does I will report him. If the dog is in pain or limping at the dog show we would never take it into the ring. How would we know how long the pain killers would work? We don't so even if I did want to take a chance I would not. And I just ment that if the pain killers are soo dangerous then how come they are doing so great in the ring. Don't go around assuming things, telling crap about me, and starting trouble.

[Guest Anonymous]

thought i would share this with you, just got back from a big show & guess what, yep lame as **** well to say i was a touch miffed is a bit of an understatement, anyhoo if i knew a certain painkiller would do the trick i wouldnt hesitate, cheating, i dont think so, if this is indeed cheating then by the same token i was cheating when i dosed myself up with paras to get rid of a mother of an head ache before i went in the ring today. think on, this isnt cosmetic sugery, its a bit of pain releif on show day if needed. big deal,i think not! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

beagle88 napisał(a):

Ok you have something against me and I know what it is. You are still assuming things. The guy I show for has been breeding and showing for OVER 30 years. The dogs are doing great in the show ring! Did I ever say that he gives it to them right before I enter NO! I ment at handling classes and when I'm working them. So what it is my business NOT yours. You really need to but out of this. You are always out trying to throw negitive things at me. Well I have had it. I love dog showing it it my most fun thing in life. Then for you to come and say that I'm cheating! I would never cheat at a dog show and never will. And if anybody I show for ever does I will report him. If the dog is in pain or limping at the dog show we would never take it into the ring. How would we know how long the pain killers would work? We don't so even if I did want to take a chance I would not. And I just ment that if the pain killers are soo dangerous then how come they are doing so great in the ring. Don't go around assuming things, telling crap about me, and starting trouble.

No I have not got 'something against you' though you do have a rather large chip...
What I said was that what you said *sparked* the question not that I accused you of anything. Please at least try to read what is said and respond to that and not jump to conclusions and make up what you think I might have meant to say and answer that.
Apparently from your defensive pose you see it as just fine that a breeder you know who wins in the show ring is producing dogs with this hereditary disorder (I've never thought doing something bad for a long time made the person all the better for doing it) and that dosing dogs for pain in order to 'work' them is fine too. I completely disagree with that. I would not breed dogs with a known hereditary disorder and I would not give them pain meds simply to work them as show dogs so I could win ribbons and championship points (though I would of course to relieve the pain).
I actually see the problem being that of the integrity level of your mentors which keeps you from learning honesty in competition and breeding. Which exactly proves my point about people new to showing (not just you please notice) learning how to win at all costs vs learning how to choose top quality dogs and present them well to help you move forward with a top quality breeding program.
While it is a lot easier doing what everybody else does - doing it right means a bit more to me and I think means more to the next generations of dogs too.

[Guest Anonymous]

P napisał(a):

thought i would share this with you, just got back from a big show & guess what, yep lame as **** well to say i was a touch miffed is a bit of an understatement, anyhoo if i knew a certain painkiller would do the trick i wouldnt hesitate, cheating, i dont think so, if this is indeed cheating then by the same token i was cheating when i dosed myself up with paras to get rid of a mother of an head ache before i went in the ring today. think on, this isnt cosmetic sugery, its a bit of pain releif on show day if needed. big deal,i think not! :wink:

So why would you want a lame dog to win over a sound dog? and what good would it do your breed if you win a championship on a dog that is not sound and that will likely pass that problem on to the next generation?
*IF* showing is about selecting the best and *IF* breeding is supposed to be about producing the best how does any form of cheating to win do any good at all?

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh it that all the better you can do? You love to start things its obivious in the past post. Once again I will say he does not breed them and never will. And even if we were to dose them up... but we don't it would not be cheating. Just as "p" put it. If you had stubbed your toe really bad and it hurt before you went into the ring I know you would take something for the pain. In fact please go take something because you are a pain.
I will no longer anwser to these post because I am wasting my time.

Have a great day! :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

Another thread made me think to ask this - lame dogs are excused from being shown in the breed ring so do you think it is ethical to give your dog's aspirin so they don't limp in order to win at the shows?
It is supposed to be against the rules to 'fix' the dogs so they can win.
What do you all think?

I think the original post needs to be reread..Beagle no names are mentioned.. Guest is asking for opinions and nothing more. Guest did not jump in this post nor throw negative things. I think Guest is worried about the way Junior handlers are learning things..A limp (even in handling class) can be a sign of bigger things(bone problems)..I would worry for my dogs sake..I would definately be calling a vet or something.. Sometimes even those who appear to have so much wisdom do not have our own best interest (or our animals) at heart(the guy you show for).. However guest is telling you that it is better to win with a dog that is 100% healthly than one you have to help be healthly...in your heart you will know the difference also.. :wink:
Think about it! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Anonymous napisał(a):

P napisał(a):

thought i would share this with you, just got back from a big show & guess what, yep lame as **** well to say i was a touch miffed is a bit of an understatement, anyhoo if i knew a certain painkiller would do the trick i wouldnt hesitate, cheating, i dont think so, if this is indeed cheating then by the same token i was cheating when i dosed myself up with paras to get rid of a mother of an head ache before i went in the ring today. think on, this isnt cosmetic sugery, its a bit of pain releif on show day if needed. big deal,i think not! :wink:

So why would you want a lame dog to win over a sound dog? and what good would it do your breed if you win a championship on a dog that is not sound and that will likely pass that problem on to the next generation?
*IF* showing is about selecting the best and *IF* breeding is supposed to be about producing the best how does any form of cheating to win do any good at all?

I feel you may be getting a touch confused over the term sound, a sound dog is one that is perfectly balanced when moving & does it freely without any problems! my dog is perfectly "sound" but you cant possibly foresee youre dog going lame possibly on the way to show due to any number of reasons(no different to us getting a bit of an ache in our joints once in a while,and not too sure why,maybe from the night before :wink: who knows) all this said, i personlly dont think its wrong to give pain releif on the day knowing full well my dog has no problems possibly 19 out of 20 shows. i just wondered if you feel its cheating giving dogs remedies for nerves, skin complaints etc etc because surely you are changing the actual dog even in these cases! & maybe we shouldnt allow dogs to have their muscles & joints massaged by proffesionals. if you were to disect all aspects of showing dogs i fear you would call us cheats on many different levels which is a shame because 99% of us absolutely adore our dogs & love the show scene :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"P
I feel you may be getting a touch confused over the term sound, a sound dog is one that is perfectly balanced when moving & does it freely without any problems! my dog is perfectly "sound" but you cant possibly foresee youre dog going lame possibly on the way to show due to any number of reasons(no different to us getting a bit of an ache in our joints once in a while,and not too sure why,maybe from the night before :wink: who knows) all this said, i personlly dont think its wrong to give pain releif on the day knowing full well my dog has no problems possibly 19 out of 20 shows. i just wondered if you feel its cheating giving dogs remedies for nerves, skin complaints etc etc because surely you are changing the actual dog even in these cases! & maybe we shouldnt allow dogs to have their muscles & joints massaged by proffesionals. if you were to disect all aspects of showing dogs i fear you would call us cheats on many different levels which is a shame because 99% of us absolutely adore our dogs & love the show scene :D[/quote']

Lameness is always for a reason and knowing what the reason is *exactly* is the point in not showing a lame dog. Plus I still do not see from your statements why you think a lame dog should compete at all particularly if you love it and would not want it to do more damage to itself for a mere competition. A lame dog is not sound even if you give it pain meds so the lameness does not show.
And yes I consider it foolish to breed or compete with dogs with skin problems and temperament issues too - what good do you do for dogs by perpetuating the problems? If you are not in it for the love of the breed and its betterment then what are you in it for? How is hiding a problem bettering the breed?
I know you love the 'show scene' and it seems quite likely more than you love and care for the dogs - there are lots of show people who do. :cry:

[Guest roo]

As some one who judges, shows breeds and LOVES their dogs, i feel i have to say, an unsound dog will always be an unsound dog , if this is the case why show it why breed from it?
But a dog can be lame on the day, what does this make that dog UNSOUND? no it makes that dog LAME.
That dog will be knocked for being lame, of course.
What would you prefer, an absolutely beautiful specimen of the breed who is lame on a leg, due to i dont know twisting it or stubbing it on the car door or something,Or a cripple who can not move properly at all.
A dog that can not move properly at all who is UNSOUND, will still not move properly with a pain killer, WHY? because it is incorrectly built. Why ? Because it is unsound. there is a big difference between being lame, and being unsound.
Roo :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Everybody who is anybody will try anything so there dog will win..I live in Canada and somebody went as far as to get a fake testicle put on a male,well guess what?When the dog was in the show ring the judge went to check his testies,he then told the owner of the dog that he cannot place him in the show..The owner asked why as he is the number #1 Boxer in Canada,the judge then told him because your dogs has 3 testicles and where did the 3rd one come from??I cannot figure out to this day how he made it so far in the rankings then that happend..

Needless to say this dog was used for breeding and did produce alot of males with the same problam..Dog show people will do anything if it will make there dogs win at a show..And also out here in Canada you can show altered dogs,but they have to be in certain classes and they can also obtain championships...

And for the person that wonders why you cannot show a fixed dog in the states,well it is simple...You are out there to try and improve the breed and if your dog is fixed then you cannot do that..How do you think there is so many top breeders out there with number one dogs,because they study there dogs over and over again until they have the 2 perfect mates breed them together and hope for the best,but the best is not always what they get..I guess oneday in the States they will have a class that you can show altered dogs in,but don't hold your breath because it took Canada a while to do it and it only came into affect about 2 years ago..Thank God...

Have a good day! :lol:

[Guest roo]

In the cat show world, you can show neutered cats but they go into the premier classes, all these classes are for neutered cats only.
I think that the boxers owner, mentioned above must be one of these, i don't care about the breed, i must win at any cost, and i like stud fees rolling in no matter what!!!! breeders.
I wish i had been there to see her face :wink:
Roo

[Guest Anonymous]

roo napisał(a):

As some one who judges, shows breeds and LOVES their dogs, i feel i have to say, an unsound dog will always be an unsound dog , if this is the case why show it why breed from it?
But a dog can be lame on the day, what does this make that dog UNSOUND? no it makes that dog LAME.
That dog will be knocked for being lame, of course.
What would you prefer, an absolutely beautiful specimen of the breed who is lame on a leg, due to i dont know twisting it or stubbing it on the car door or something,Or a cripple who can not move properly at all.
A dog that can not move properly at all who is UNSOUND, will still not move properly with a pain killer, WHY? because it is incorrectly built. Why ? Because it is unsound. there is a big difference between being lame, and being unsound.
Roo :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Apparently you are not as familiar with the show scene in the states - an unsound dog can certainly be fixed with pain killers to appear sound and win at a show. So lame dogs are 'fixed' because they will not be able to compete on the day they are lame.
I've seen a dog that I know x-rays displastic win multiple times in its breed competition - at Westminster even. :cry: I've seen people putting the injections into their dogs so the lameness won't show to the judge. The dogs will work a sore body part properly if its not sore to them.
I've had judges put up dogs I knew had luxating patellae too.
I would prefer the lame dog not be considered a 'beautiful example' of a breed as there is NO WAY to know why the dog is lame - could be anything from a muscle pull to a bad joint problem to bone cancer or a greenstick break.
Pretty and sound are not opposites to me - I want a sound dog that is typical of its breed when I put one up and I'd put up a dog with a cosmetic issue over one with a structural issue any day if that is all the choice I had.
And I'd institute drug checks on dogs that win for the dog's sakes because I've seen the abuse the show dogs can take when the owner cares more about winning than about the dog.

[Guest roo]

I have only shown in the uk so i am not familiar with showing in the states,
You make it sound like its the norm to inject dogs over there.
There must be regulations in the states from the KC about this sort of thing, why do others not inform the governing body, or complain?????
I still say if a dog is incorrectly built and is unsound even if you give it a pill or a jab, an incorrectly built dog will still not move right.
A pain killer for a strain etc is totally different to a jab for popping hocks etc. An injection will not give a dog the correct length of upperarm, or a dog with underangulation will not suddenly be perfectly angulated after a jab.
I think it is very wrong to inject or administer pills so that your dog can win.
We see incorrect stock in the ring all the time, we will aways see face judging, friends being done favours etc.
If i don't respect the judges opinion its quite simple, i don't enter.
When i judge, i look for breed type, soundness, i don't care whos showing the dog, its the dog i am judging. I always do what I think is right on the day, and if i didn't i could never live with it.
Roo

[Guest Anonymous]

Where can you buy this wonder injection?