ArtfulDodger

yes, most show bred dogs from reputable breeders give a lifetime guarantee, I would be very suspicious of a breeder who told me my dog was guaranteed until it had become nearly fully mature and then I was on my own. If a breeder is confident in the health of their dogs a lifetime guarantee should be the ONLY guarantee he/she delivers.

I've got to admit, you should never trust your apbt not to fight with another dog, there's always a situation that can spark some aggression among even the most well socialised dogs. I must say that I have been lucky with my apbt's over the years. I have a 12 year old bitch now and a 2 year old male. I know that some male pits don't have a problem fighting with bitches and I know for a fact that most apbt bitches just don't have a problem fighting with males full stop. In my case, my male Reggie, is a true gentleman and just doesn't show aggression toward bitches at all. He will act like a lovestruck puppy around bitches, obviously this might change as he fully matures but I don't think so, not in his case. Luckily my old bitch, now 12, has realised she is old and isn't as aggressive toward other dogs as she used to be. This makes life in my household very peaceful. I am looking after a friends bitch while he's away for a couple of weeks and she is VERY aggressive to all dogs. I can convince her to curb her aggression while I am there but I would never leave her alone with my dogs, I always seperate them when I go to work etc. My dogs ears are uncropped, I live in Australia where it is illegal to do so. Personally I think cropping ears is outdated, why would you crop a dogs ears unless you were doing it to make them a smaller target for when the dog is fought? This is the original reasoning behind cropped ears. Fighting dogs would always get serious ear infections etc after a fight and some "bright spark" decided to cut out the middle man and cut the ears off before the dog fought. People think it looks good now, I can see the attraction, apbt's look more formidable with cropped ears, but I still think it is cruel and selfish behaviour on humans part. I disagree with tail docking in boxers, rotts etc too, unless an individual dog is having medical or psychiatric problems that require the tail to be amputated. By the way Iaduenda, a pitbull's history is alot older than 100 years, maybe you are referring to only registered APBT's and AmStaffs, these dogs are now showing a standard look and build, but they are in no way more pure than the small, tight lipped pitbulls or the rangey, houndlike jowelly ones. Somebody decided that the big headed, muscular pitbull should be the standard all pits are judged on and began breeding them to look like that strain. In australia the trend seems to be for the biggest pit with the biggest mouth and many pits are starting to look like American Bulldogs or dogo argentina's. These dogs are still pure pitbull though. I can see the time when the Amstaff and the APBT will have to be recognised as a different strain to the other types of pitbull. In which case, what will we call the pitbull that is small and tight lipped, or the pitty that is houndlike and lippy?? They are still pitbulls but they have developed a different look to the show pit or amstaff.

Ok, advice noted, I'll try not to slur and drool as much. I'm excited now!! 8) Mei-Mei, that american express line would work on even the most antisocial woman wouldn't it?? I wonder where I can get some fake ones made up to hand out next time I go out. I could stress to the young lady that this "shopping spree" will take place early tomorrow afternoon and that in the meantime would she like to come back to my house and see my etchings. :wink: Here are some lines used by my friends. I've never had the audacity to use them myself but my friends do have a rather blunt approach. 1. Did it hurt when you fell from heaven? 2. Have you seen my heart? Oh, there it is, I knew you'd stolen it. 3. My name is (insert name) you'd better get used to it, you'll be screaming it out in orgasm later tonight. 4. Don't worry, I'll help you get your wings back. 5. Are you in love with me yet or would you like me to walk past again?

I was all ready to launch into my anti dog fighting rant, thanks for saving me the trouble and the risk of RSI. :wink: I fight my pitbulls for the right to use the garden hose without having two animals leaping through the flow and making me wet. I fight my pitbulls to see who can make the best noises, they can yodel like a swiss goatherd. I fight my pitbulls for the frisbee.

I need a female opinion on my technique, tell me why I don't get lucky? Approach desired female, being careful to not lean drunkenly on her, gaze blankly in the vicinity of her chest for 2 minutes then look towards where her face should be. Suck up any drool that may have escaped before she sees it and prepare to deliver pick up line rehearsed earlier that evening. (first impressions count) Deliver line is mumbling whisper, eyes blearilly closed, and lurch forward unsteadily to hear her response. Scratch your head, frown and stagger to the bar for another Crownie. I'm just not getting any luck this way??? :cry:

Very true Goo we don't know the history of the daschie, it may well have been trained to go for anything that moves. I still think that a dog should instictively know not to bite a human under any circumstances, unless it's a wild dog then all bets are off. As we domesticated dogs, or as they domesticated us, an understanding was formed that one does not bite the hand that feeds it. This is just a theory but I would suggest that if we were to conduct a temprement comparison with the average dog today and the average dog of ... say 300 years ago, we'd find that the 300 year dog had a more stable temprement than the one today. This would be because 300 years ago a dog was either a privilage or a working colleague and was strictly bred to be person friendly. It's no good if the colleague you have to work with every day bites all your clients. Of course this is an unprovable hypothesis but I have a more current example which might help say what I'm trying to say. On aboriginal camps in the aussie outback there are always a dozen dogs roaming around for company and for hunting partners. These dogs, although very wary of strangers, are totally trustworthy around the children and adults in the camp. Out there in the bush it's a matter of HAVING to obey the rules or you end up sunny side up on the coals in the fire that evening. As result, any pups that show signs of being antisocial to the humans in the camp are culled and only dogs that are efficient hunters and stable around humans are kept and bred from. In western, capitalist society we have enough money to not have to worry about whether we can afford to feed a dog so we keep them and breed from them indiscriminately and pass their aggressive tendencies off as cute little idiosyncracies when in fact they are seeds of destruction in the big scheme of things. I don't claim to be above all this, my dogs are as much a product of their environment as anybody else's.

Maybe it was intense prey drive Gooey?? Even still, I think prey drive can be overcome by pack structure rules. My dogs have intense prey drive but they know not to explode into action when my cat runs swiftly past their noses. If the cat surprises them and sprints past when they are not expecting it, they do jump up and look ready for the chase but they recognise the cat as a no go zone and sit back down again. If the cat were a pig I wouldn't be able to strop them. Although I trust my dogs implicitly I would stilll NEVER leave them unattended with a baby or a child. I'm confident nothing would happen but there's no point in taking the chance and risking someone's life.

I have a soft spot for foreign tongues too wildbunch :wink: There's nothing quite as enticing as an unfamiliar tongue. I was born in Uganda and left for Australia when I was 9ish, I was quite fluent in swahilli apparently, I hardly know a word these days but apparently my parent's used to use me as the interpreter when the Ugandans were being stubborn and not speaking English. (english is the main language there but alot still speak swahilli too) Anyway, for the Ugandans out there "Jambo, Habari asanta sani" excuse the spelling, my wahilli aint what it used to be. :wink: Yes K, again that reply was from me and not guest, I'm a newbie so I keep forgetting how to log on etc. As for K and myself getting into a stoush, I will say one thing "The female of the species is more deadly than the male."

Sheesh, that's all we need, more puppies. It's a wonder the RSPCA have the room for a puppy mill, I always thought they were whinging about not having the facilities to cope with the strays they get already? I hope this is just a rumour??

Again I forgot to log in, that was me disguised as guest before K. I thought that pick up line might have something to do with mechanics. Either that or veterinary medicine on a farm. :wink: bk, the line that came from your partner sounds pretty smooth, might have to try that tomorrow night. hehehe I've had varying success with "Hello, how do you like me so far?" It's alot more effective than "jesus, are they real?" and "you should see it when it's full of blood" :wink:

The case here is that the daschund attacked a defenceless, non threatening baby. :o This shows complete and utter disregard for humans on the dog's part. Andrew wasn't trying to steal his bone or poking him in the eye with his thumb or jumping on him while he was asleep. He was laying down like a small baby does. This means the dog meant malicious harm to the child. Yes, he was being a dog and asserting his place in the pack, but the child was human, not another dog, and as such should be recognised as a no go area. Sometimes you just get mean and bad tempered dogs, much like you get mean and bad tempered humans. I think this daschund was one such dog. The Hannibal Lecter of the dog world. Call me crazy, but to me a dog that doesn't have an inherant respect and love for humans, no matter what age, should never be bred from unless they are bred as guards. Even the most abused dog will not bite, look at the way most rescued fighting dogs behave. Totally mauled and abused and still wagging their tails and ready to lick the face of a stranger. Sure, if you are aware that your dog doesn't like kids, other dogs, adult humans, cats etc, and you can be absolutely sure that you will never allow the dog to be in the situation where he can bite such a thing then you and your dog should lead a nice happy life together. The reality is that any dog that shows aggression is dumped by the owner who can't be bothered dealing with it and taking the necessary precautions. Then the dog is killed by the authorities because a home can't be found for it. The reason there are so many dog attacks these days is because there are so many people who buy a dog and think how "cute" it'd be if their little bitch had puppies. Then they find a dog they think would make a nice father to these puppies and they put him over their dog. There is rarely any background check into the father's temprement or indeed the mother's temprement, all the bitch's owner sees is a cute litter of fluffballs, more often than not cross breeds, playing by the fire. Then the fluffballs are sold or given away and, if they are not dumped at a dog shelter somewhere, the cycle starts again. Not to mention all the professional puppy mills out there!!! With the number of dogs in our communities expanding almost exponentially, the maths suggests that there is going to be an increase in dog/human attacks and an increase in the number of bad tempered dogs, like our friend hannibal the daschund. As a result, common sense tells me that we can't pussyfoot around watching the problem escalate, we must act now and nip it in the bud. Make it illegal to advertise dogs unless you have a licence to breed them maybe??? Shut down petshops that sell kittens and pups. Or offer free neutering/spading clinics and dog training classes, advertise good dog ownership, educate more. How do we pay for all this?? Higher dog registration fees, this will sort the true dog lovers from the ones who have watched a Lassie movie. We can't overcharge because the poorest person still has the right to have a dog if it can be looked after properly. There must be a way around this problem but it's not breed specific legislation or knee jerk reaction. It must be methodical and painstaking and dare I say it RUTHLESS. Short term pain for long term gain. The dogs and humans would be the eventual winners.

I agree sharon 2003 Dr H is a charlatan and a quack whose "credentials", I think you will find, are readily available to anyone who has ever read the back of a comicbook. His snake oil remedies and leach therapy make good television, unfortunately, but he doesn't seem to know that science has come leaps and bounds since the days of castor oil, nettle soup and eye of toad. I'm just waffling for the sake of it now, somebody help me!!!

:lol: you're terrible muriel. What pick up lines would he use? "The blinkers won't worry you at all little filly, I'll give you your head in the last furlong and we'll cum through a length ahead." Aaahhh, the pick up line, a magnificent artform. :) so 8) , you come here often? :wink:

Say no more, a short man who owns a massive dog and a very expensive sportscar is a git by definition. The fact that he owns a pub as well is just extra trimming. :wink: They say the car is an extension of the pecker, does this mean he's really really small and really really fast? Maybe the convertible part refers to him being circumsized? I'm assuming you'd know bk_blue, after all you were the one who told me that puppies work as a pick up tool and he had a nice rottie pup??? 8) Is there supposed to be a real time chat channel opening up here?? Hope so. Not that I'd have enough computer savvy to be able to use it. :(

Aurora I may be completely off track here because I don't know the full history. From what I have read though, it sounds like your aggressive boxer is making a play for top dog (among the dogs that is, not including you) Is she about 2 years old?? I'm assuming she's a younger dog than the one she bullies? If so, it sounds like she's making a play for the other dog's position in the heirarchy. Or she might just be reinforcing her position because she perceives a threat to it in the other dog. Some alpha dogs (bitches especially I have found) like to be nasty dictators when they get top dog position and all submissive dogs below them must constantly bow and scrape to get away without being reprimanded by the queen. Other alpha dogs are more confident in their position and rule gently but firmly. Maybe her aggression toward the other dog stems from this. I'm assuming you recognise the angry girl as second in charge after you and give her the respect she needs to be given in plain sight of the other dogs? I have found that aggression from second ranked dogs can be dampened (not totally removed) by making it obvious that you (the pack leader) recognises and endorses their position as second in charge by feeding them first, allowing them in and out of the house first, putting on their lead first when taking them for walks etc etc etc. Even if secretly your other dog is your favourite, you must recognise who the dogs see as second in charge and treat your favourite accordingly. If your favourite is the pack fool and must be submissive to every other dog in the pack, you must treat him as the pack subordinate and feed him last etc. You can still cuddle and love him up but not too much and not in front of the dominant dogs. As for human aggression, maybe this can be sorted out after she feels comfortable with her place in your pack. Don't give up on her tho, I think there's plenty of hope.

I agree with bullygirl, if a dog seriously attacks a human being that dog should be disposed of. I can see that it' s not the dog's fault and that the parents should have been more vigilant, but the fact remains the dog is dangerous and should not be allowed to be around young people. Not to mention the fact that what's to stop the owner of the dog breeding from it and possibly passing this temprement problem on? As bully girl said, if it was a larger breed the dog would have been put to sleep immediately but because it's a cute daschund there is debate about what should happen to it. A larger breed would probably have killed andrew and if the daschund had more time with the baby it would probably have killed him too. I figure we HAVE to make laws about dog ownership, it's unavoidable because there are so many dogs out there. So, if we make a law that a dangerous dog should be destroyed then we should stick to it no matter what the breed happens to be. I don't know how many times I have been harrassed by territorial toy breeds and small terriers like silkies, aussies, jack russells etc when I'm out walking. These little dogs can be very angry little customers and if they were a larger breed they would attack without hesitation. We all know a person with a nasty little dog who barks and snaps and nips at people, imagine if that dog was the size of a labrador, say your prayers!!! It should never have happened in the first place, the parents must shoulder the whole responsibility. The kid's wounds are their fault and so is the death of what could have been a lovely little dog. We must remember tho that in a pack society (the only society dogs understand) any miscreants or anti social dogs are killed or chased out of the pack never to be allowed to return.

K, you've done very well in the aussiespeak exam. I was under the impression you were an american?? Obviously not, well, obvious because bk_blue mentioned Dutch above. Now, just to inform our USA buddies, Steve Erwin the crocodile hunter was famous in the states before we had ever heard of him in Australia. I'd like to stress that ABSOLUTELY NOBODY else in Ausralia is like him, he's an overanimated buffoon that makes good television. Please don't judge us by old stevie. :wink: Mind you he does hunt pigs with a nice staffy cross so he can't be all bad. CRIKEY!!!!! :D

Imagine the succes you'd have with a hot car with puppies in it. :o If it came from COSMO then it's definitely gospel, Cosmo is the handbook for men on how to fathom women. Or was that Ralph Magazine??? :wink:

And still undefeated internet dog forum champion, weighing in at (insert weight here) and hailing out of the USA ..., the Golden Girl, K "The Staffy" St Bernard!!!!!! (to be read like a boxing ring announcer) Arful Dodger lift's K's arm in the air as cameras flash. :wink: Hope you're right about LongTailRottLady, she might be innocent and sobbing into her pillow as we speak?? :cry: Or maybe she's guilty as Fudge and has her long rotty tail between her legs. :lol: By the way, you're obviously a seasoned fighting pitbull, maybe an airedale???

I'll join you in stopping the puppy mills, we need to get all the dogs outta there first and then we can bomb the GeorgeW out of it. Here's another piece of pure aussie for you guys to practice, "strewth mate, you blokes are grouse, I'm dinkum. Maybe we could all get together and crack a slab and flap our gums for a while." No aussie actually talks like that but it's fun to say we do. :wink:

BK is way better looking than me, he gets SO much attention when we go out- kind of like escorting a movie star everywhere. He loves it, he's such a princess. Does bk stand for Brad Kitt?? :) I feel very proud walking Cleo, she always used to attract attention from people, even got me a date or 2 when she was an ULTRA CUTE little puppy. :wink: Hey, if you've got a pup that melts girl's hearts you may as well use it to your advantage huh?? Back me up on this guys. 8) I know what you mean about drunk photos, they always end up with the subject with half closed or bung eyes and a stupid lopsided grin on their glowing faces. I know, I've seen plenty of pics of me in a less than ... lucid state.

ooohhhh bk_blue, I've just been to your site. I thought the average internet chatter/forum watcher would be an ugly, hunchbacked troglodyte. Thankyou so much for proving me wrong!!! 8) Seems like we guys are surrounded by good lookers in this forum, the dogs aren't bad either hehehe

Hi bk_blue I'm a rural journalist and I have come across a guy in the north of West Australia who uses red or blue heelers crossed with boxers for rounding his cattle. He swears that they are really good at it, he reckons the extra length in the legs and the extra muscle makes them work longer and harder. The cattle he uses them on are a wild bunch of station cattle so they need some serious dogs to get them moving. Other cattle and sheep guys swear by the more traditional purebred herders eg borders, heelers, kelpies etc I guess it's all in the dog?? Maybe your dog would be better off on cattle if he likes nipping heels?? Mind you he'd have to learn how to duck a kick while in mid gallop, that's gotta hurt!!! :wink:

oops, forgot to log in when I returned that post, I appeared as guest. K, see above comments from "guest" , well ArtfulDodger meant them too. :wink:

If anyone is interested in seeing my dogs just to check for fight wounds or signs of neglect I hope you will have a look at some pics I have posted on the following website. [url]http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=129740[/url] By the way, I'm on the site too. Yep, this is what a pig hunting, pitbull owning aussie guy looks like. :wink: